Dunefolk(previously Khalifate) race description

[Celtic_Minstrel]

So I guess no-one had any comments on my last dunefolk history idea, huh?

Also for the record, I'm still in favour of keeping them human. I'd like to see alternate elf and dwarf factions too, by the way. (Perhaps with an elvish hunter unit. >_> )

[name]

So I guess no-one had any comments on my last dunefolk history idea, huh?

I think your idea of travel through caverns discovered and/or carved by dwarves was already suggested by someone earlier. The problem is, it would be quite a journey to accomplish on foot, going half way around the world, with no sun, none of the food that comes from the sun and by humans who would be way better off relying on the dwarves to work any underground trade route (and dwarves are motivated by profit).

It also does not fit the desert nomad / near eastern theme of the dunefolk at all.

Also for the record, I'm still in favour of keeping them human.

What if the faction had one or two human units along with the sand form dunefolk?
These humans would represent an offshoot from the earliest age of wesnoth civilization that ventured into the desert and discovered or were themselves discovered by the dunefolk sand creatures. Each of the two races could have a different alignment, which would better illustrate the multi-alignment dichotomy of the faction.

[MathBrush]

Reading through the 'renaming the faction' thread, it looks like the sand-human idea was suggested early on, before the vote on the race name (which was, in fact, determined to be human).

I do think it would explain a great deal of things, and that the current sprites would require very little tweaking (it would be more of an internal anatomy change). After all, elves have big ears and dwarves are short with big noses but otherwise both are pretty human looking.

I strongly support the sand-human idea, but I understand that I've entered a debate that has been ongoing and incredibly divisive for well over a decade.

Whatever is finally decided on, I'm completely onboard. I'll change my Sand in the Wind campaign to fit the details, as I'm sure I can find a way to get it to fit anywhere.

I think the name changes of units and faction have created much more interest in playing with the faction.

[Sur_191]

Can we get a poll, whether we are are going to change them into another race? This is a big change, so I think that we should know opinion of community on that, if we are going to change this.

[skeptical_troll]

I'm not sure if solving issues by polls is a good thing, as it doesn't guarantee consistency. I am personally against changing their race to something different than human. First of all, if I remember right one of the reasons to include this faction was to add some cultural variety in the game. If now they need to be a different race just because they have different behavior/look compared to standard Wesnothians, hence turning it into a biological difference, that is kind of lost. If one applies the same type of arguments which I read above to the Quenoth Elves (except the big/great continent origin), one should conclude that Quenoth Elves cannot be elves. I really think that the game's world would greatly benefit from more complexity within races, rather than being populated by a multitude of flat, singly-faced races. So long live dark/deep elves, smart orcs etc.. and let's use the dunefolk to achieve this, as I suspect it was initially intended.

Besides, IMO introducing in the lore/world a different civilization of an already-present race feels much more believable and less contrived than adding a whole new race capable of growing a civilization.

[Pentarctagon]

I'm not sure if solving issues by polls is a good thing, as it doesn't guarantee consistency. I am personally against changing their race to something different than human. First of all, if I remember right one of the reasons to include this faction was to add some cultural variety in the game. If now they need to be a different race just because they have different behavior/look compared to standard Wesnothians, hence turning it into a biological difference, that is kind of lost. If one applies the same type of arguments which I read above to the Quenoth Elves (except the big/great continent origin), one should conclude that Quenoth Elves cannot be elves. I really think that the game's world would greatly benefit from more complexity within races, rather than being populated by a multitude of flat, singly-faced races. So long live dark/deep elves, smart orcs etc.. and let's use the dunefolk to achieve this, as I suspect it was initially intended.

Besides, IMO introducing in the lore/world a different civilization of an already-present race feels much more believable and less contrived than adding a whole new race capable of growing a civilization.

I was thinking of them not being human as a way to help explain their origins in a way that doesn't have them either repeat the same "came by ship" method as the existing Humans or have them travel across hundreds-to-thousands of miles of undersea caves(which seems somewhat implausible), as well as tie in to their name, rather because of their behavior or looks. I'm not entirely sure where that was said, actually, unless you're referring to the talk about sprites?

[skeptical_troll]

I was thinking of them not being human as a way to help explain their origins in a way that doesn't have them either repeat the same "came by ship" method as the existing Humans or have them travel across hundreds-to-thousands of miles of undersea caves(which seems somewhat implausible), as well as tie in to their name, rather because of their behavior or looks. I'm not entirely sure where that was said, actually, unless you're referring to the talk about sprites?

Yes, partly about the sprite discussion, but people have also invoked the different movetype/alignment to justify the need of a different race, beside obviously the affinity with sand.

If the problem is just about the origin, I don't think it's impossible to make some of the proposed theories more plausible/interesting, depending on the case. I think it's better to work on those rather than restarting from the beginning at the race discussion. I'm fine with ships as long as it's not the same exodus story of tRoW (for example they had a close interactions with nagas who helped them in sailing, then the relationship worsened and the nagas left them where they were, just an idea). And I still think the cave scenario could work in a fantasy world with a vast and rich underground, as Irdya seems to have from existing campaigns. The ocean could be much narrower far south, making both a (possibly temporary, e.g. due to an anomalous cold winter) land/ice bridge or an underground route perfectly possible. I also still think that this could be left to campaigns to sort out.

[name]

I'm not sure if solving issues by polls is a good thing, as it doesn't guarantee consistency.

Yeah, I can see how polling each issue individually leads to a "designed by committee" seeming result.

First of all, if I remember right one of the reasons to include this faction was to add some cultural variety in the game. If now they need to be a different race just because they have different behavior/look compared to standard Wesnothians, hence turning it into a biological difference, that is kind of lost. If one applies the same type of arguments which I read above to the Quenoth Elves (except the big/great continent origin), one should conclude that Quenoth Elves cannot be elves. I really think that the game's world would greatly benefit from more complexity within races, rather than being populated by a multitude of flat, singly-faced races.

I do not understand how a biological difference negates interesting cultural differences. I do not see why you cannot have both.

But putting that aside, let me ask you this. How would you feel if the dunefolk were a culture of desert dwelling saurians with an advanced culture, distinct from the typical swamp dwelling saurians with their tribal culture? A separate culture of an existing race, native to the great continent. Would you find that satisfactory?

[skeptical_troll]

But putting that aside, let me ask you this. How would you feel if the dunefolk were a culture of desert dwelling saurians with an advanced culture, distinct from the typical swamp dwelling saurians with their tribal culture? A separate culture of an existing race, native to the great continent. Would you find that satisfactory?

Yes, that would also go in the right direction, although saurians are clearly a wrong example given the current sprites. I guess I used the wrong words, they don't have to be humans, even a dwarves or elves dunefolk would be interesting (the latter already exist, actually). I think I'd stick to humans as the sprites clearly are, and because I like fantasy settings were non-humans are the exception (but this is just my personal taste).

[Xalzar]

I think I quite prefer them to remain human. It's also the easiest solution, they'd need only a convincing and non-repetitive origin story.
I also think keeping them human contributes to enrich the lore of one the species already known - the closest to the player too - and brings more credibility to the Wesnoth universe as a whole.
They could be ex-humans with a twist, like I imagined in my last post: in that case they still expand the human lore and gain a new mysterious and magical layer some people find lacking in the faction right now.
But I'm not closed to a specie change: after all, Dwarves, Elves, Orcs etc. are themselves expressions of different human facets; another race could represent another aspect of humanity without being defined as "human". But it has to be cool, I don't want human-like creatures who "are not really humans but a race which has a similar form"... So a change of sprites would be really needed in that case, and stats could change drastically too. It would be maybe easier to invent a new faction from the ground at that point, than trying to fit a new different race in a faction designed to be "human".
About the last two cases, while brainstorming I've come to imagine them as the Ethereals of World of Warcraft: ignore all the bandages, they could keep all the equipment depicted in the sprite and only have to change face and hands to something else (sand? fire? mystic energies?) and I'd say the mounts.
As I said, I'd prefer keeping them human, but brainstorming is good nonetheless.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

So I guess no-one had any comments on my last dunefolk history idea, huh?

I think your idea of travel through caverns discovered and/or carved by dwarves was already suggested by someone earlier. The problem is, it would be quite a journey to accomplish on foot, going half way around the world, with no sun, none of the food that comes from the sun and by humans who would be way better off relying on the dwarves to work any underground trade route (and dwarves are motivated by profit).

It also does not fit the desert nomad / near eastern theme of the dunefolk at all.

This response makes it sound as if you didn't even read my description at all (or like, just read the first sentence or two and skipped the rest, or maybe just skimmed it). I think it might actually be better if it didn't involve dwarves but instead some as-yet-unknown race.

What if the faction had one or two human units along with the sand form dunefolk?

That doesn't really do it for me. If it was the reverse (one or two sand-people amongst mostly humans), I might be able to stomach it...

I'm not sure if solving issues by polls is a good thing, as it doesn't guarantee consistency.

Yeah, from now we shouldn't be too quick to just solve everything by poll.

I am personally against changing their race to something different than human. First of all, if I remember right one of the reasons to include this faction was to add some cultural variety in the game. If now they need to be a different race just because they have different behavior/look compared to standard Wesnothians, hence turning it into a biological difference, that is kind of lost. If one applies the same type of arguments which I read above to the Quenoth Elves (except the big/great continent origin), one should conclude that Quenoth Elves cannot be elves. I really think that the game's world would greatly benefit from more complexity within races, rather than being populated by a multitude of flat, singly-faced races. So long live dark/deep elves, smart orcs etc.. and let's use the dunefolk to achieve this, as I suspect it was initially intended.

THIS, ten thousand times over! We pretty much have all the races we need, to be honest. I mean, I wouldn't mind a couple more, but what's really needed is more of the races we have. Alternate dwarves, alternate elves, alternate humans (aragwaithi!), alternate orcs, alternate saurians, alternate nagas, alternate drakes, alternate merfolk, alternate trolls! In some cases it might be simply enough to reuse existing units in new combinations; in other cases, all-new units would be preferred.

Yes, partly about the sprite discussion, but people have also invoked the different movetype/alignment to justify the need of a different race, beside obviously the affinity with sand.

I don't think they need to be a different race in order to explain the different movetype. They definitely don't need to be non-human to explain the alignments, since there are humans of every other alignment too. I think the movetype could be explained solely by the fact that they've lived in the desert for a long time and are well-used to it, but if that's not enough, they could be "jinn-touched" or something, increasing their affinity with the desert more than mere proximity can manage. (Though I still like the idea of making "jinn-touched" a trait rather than something applying to the whole race.)

[name]

This response makes it sound as if you didn't even read my description at all (or like, just read the first sentence or two and skipped the rest, or maybe just skimmed it). I think it might actually be better if it didn't involve dwarves but instead some as-yet-unknown race.

I reread your original idea and it doesn't seem different from my original impression except the lacking of dwarves. You mentioned jinni being the possible replacement facilitator for such an incredible journey in a later post.

But it is still really far out for an ordinary surface dwelling species like humans to survive something that extreme. On foot half way across the planet with no light, no food, is there even fresh water underneath an ocean? Or breathable air? Seems like it would take much less magical intervention to fly them to their destination at this point.

THIS, ten thousand times over! We pretty much have all the races we need, to be honest. I mean, I wouldn't mind a couple more, but what's really needed is more of the races we have. Alternate dwarves, alternate elves, alternate humans (aragwaithi!), alternate orcs, alternate saurians, alternate nagas, alternate drakes, alternate merfolk, alternate trolls! In some cases it might be simply enough to reuse existing units in new combinations; in other cases, all-new units would be preferred.

You should really run this grand vision for multiplayer factions by experienced ladder players or whoever is in charge of online game balance these days.

Unless you are aiming all of this for an era outside of default era? But if that is the case, then are dunefolk also aimed at an era beyond default? Because default already has loyalist humans, mage humans, outlaw humans and the necromancer humans. That is four distinct human cultures with however many units. How much more attention should be given to just this one race before work gets started on all these alternate cultures/factions/units for all the other races you listed?

[Celtic_Minstrel]

You should really run this grand vision for multiplayer factions by experienced ladder players or whoever is in charge of online game balance these days.

I don't really care about multiplayer balance that much, but I also don't think all the alternate stuff necessarily needs to be in default era. In fact it's probably better to have other eras for most of it; adding too many factions to the default era will just clutter it.

Unless you are aiming all of this for an era outside of default era? But if that is the case, then are dunefolk also aimed at an era beyond default? Because default already has loyalist humans, mage humans, outlaw humans and the necromancer humans. That is four distinct human cultures with however many units. How much more attention should be given to just this one race before work gets started on all these alternate cultures/factions/units for all the other races you listed?

On the one hand, I think it's a stretch to consider those four all as distinct cultures. They are, at the very least, very similar cultures. They all share a common root. Mind you, I could still count at least three human cultures in the lore - the horse clans, Wesnoth proper, and the northerners. Perhaps Elensefar as a fourth.

On the other hand, you certainly have a point about humans getting more attention. Although I would also like to import the aragwaithi faction, I think a higher priority is getting alternate cultures for the other races. Alternate drakes and saurians in particular could be interesting.

Anyway this isn't really on-topic for this thread. >_>

[Celtic_Minstrel]

But it is still really far out for an ordinary surface dwelling species like humans to survive something that extreme. On foot half way across the planet with no light, no food, is there even fresh water underneath an ocean? Or breathable air? Seems like it would take much less magical intervention to fly them to their destination at this point.

You've been underestimating the desert if I recall correctly... now you're also underestimating the underground. No light? No food? Why would you assume that? We're talking about an extensive cave system; I think it would be more of a stretch to think that nothing lives there. As for light, it could be a problem, but there could also be something like phosphorescent fungi to light the way. Fresh water I could see as maybe being a problem, but they could probably carry it with them. I don't think breathable air would be a significant issue as long as they kept to known paths. They'd also be guided by natives, at least initially (not necessarily jinn; I did suggest them as a possibility but think something new would fit better).

[name]

I don't really care about multiplayer balance that much, but I also don't think all the alternate stuff necessarily needs to be in default era. In fact it's probably better to have other eras for most of it; adding too many factions to the default era will just clutter it.

It is critical we be clear about whether we are thinking about multiplayer default era or things well beyond it like an expanded era or mainline campaigns. Cultural nuance and subverting expectations are interesting things to have in your stories and world building but they are not the purview of the default era multiplayer experience. Far from it.

Default era multiplayer is focused only on keeping a small number of very distinctive factions very well balanced with each other. It is not about subtleties and is not a good tool for representing them; it is all about the broad strokes. Adding one new faction that alone attempts to inject such subtleties into this era will have only a small overall effect while hindering its own blending into said era.

If the dunefolk are intended for default era, then it would be more productive to look at them through the lens of what default era is now, rather than through the lens of any grievances regarding how flatly mainline campaigns depict different cultures within a species or different individuals within a culture. Problems with how complexly characters and cultures are depicted in mainline campaigns can only be addressed by changes to said campaigns. You need to use the right tool for the job.

If the dunefolk are intended for a different era from default, that should be determined first as it has a massive effect on their historical description. If they are an after the fall era faction, the problem of their origin is solved by them being the distant descendants of wesnoth, whose culture radically shifted over the indefinite thousands of years since the climate radically shifted into desert. Just as the quenoth elves may be similarly descended from the wood elves.

What the dunefolk are or should be is radically different depending on what they are ultimately going to be a part of.

On the other hand, you certainly have a point about humans getting more attention. Although I would also like to import the aragwaithi faction, I think a higher priority is getting alternate cultures for the other races. Alternate drakes and saurians in particular could be interesting.

So then let me ask you the same thing I asked skeptical_troll:

How would you feel if the dunefolk were a culture of desert dwelling saurians with an advanced culture, distinct from the typical swamp dwelling saurians with their tribal culture? A separate culture of an existing race, native to the great continent. Would you find that satisfactory?

now you're also underestimating the underground. No light? No food? Why would you assume that? We're talking about an extensive cave system; I think it would be more of a stretch to think that nothing lives there. As for light, it could be a problem, but there could also be something like phosphorescent fungi to light the way. Fresh water I could see as maybe being a problem, but they could probably carry it with them. I don't think breathable air would be a significant issue as long as they kept to known paths. They'd also be guided by natives, at least initially (not necessarily jinn; I did suggest them as a possibility but think something new would fit better).

It is not the underground; it is the under-ocean-under-ground. Any ventilation shafts would flood with sea water and a cave complex spanning the floor of an ocean would be far more vast than any mine, so breathable air flow from the surface would not exist. Food only occurs where biologically useful energy input exists. Fresh water flows into the ocean, not underneath it. Carrying all the food and water needed for an on foot trek across the span of an ocean would not be an option. Foxfire fungi are extremely dim and can only exist where there is food and water.