The need for a Balance Team

[Skyend]

Youre all welcome to express your opinion, but once it gets off topic pleace open up a new thread instead.
It's really draning.

[Kendoka]

I fully support and agree to this addition, the game has been needing this for a while now and all of the people mentioned to be part of the squad are more than qualified and trusted by me and the community

[inferno8]

If a Balance Team is going to become reality, I'd really like to recommend ForestDragon for the position of a balancing team member as a SP+UMC expert.

ForestDragon has already demonstrated his skills in multiple merged PRs, showcasing his proficiency in game balancing and modifications.
In addition, he also possesses an in-depth understanding of the impact of Default Era's balance on UMC content, a factor that is often overlooked by some developers.

I have had the pleasure of working with him on the Era of Magic balance since 2017, a collaboration that spans nearly eight years. This longevity in collaboration speaks to his reliability and dedication to the projects he is involved with. In fact, ForestDragon has been instrumental in the success of Era of Magic, proving his ability to create and implement effective balance changes and engaging content.

His involvement in the BfW community over the years has not only provided him with extensive experience in dealing with various issues but also enabled him to successfully collaborate with other balancers on different aspects of the game. His passion, experience, and ability to understand the larger picture make him in my opinion a valuable asset for the Balancing Team.

[Roge_Tebnelok]

I agree with inferno8 and also recommend Dwarftough for the balance team. He has ported and created, both by himself and in collaboration, a number of highly acclaimed UMCs, judging by the number of times his works were downloaded on the addon server, and he's quite communicable, which will help with listening and understanding the community's feedback.

[Mirion147]

I once again want to stress that having a large portion of a team comprised of members who are already part of another team feels overly like a stacked deck. It would be my opinion that members of this team should come for various groups and viewpoints to best encompass Wesnoth's full community. Out of the two, I would support Dwarftough.

[KameRamen]

Hello, I would recommend ForestDragon. He has a very deep knowledge of balancing and in my opinion is one of the most serious about the future of Wesnoth. In addition, his communication and overall grasp of the situation is impeccable, and I endorse him.

[name]

It would be my opinion that members of this team should come for various groups and viewpoints to best encompass Wesnoth's full community.

Then I would recommend:

Bolyarich/igorbat
Dashomew/Matto
Skyend

As the 1v1 experts, all of which demonstrate far more skill and experience in that field than Hejnewar (who has no record in the tournaments or ladder). Next:

dwarftough/catbegemot/Below
Forest Dragon
Mechanical

As the SP and UMC experts. Finally you automatically have:

Dalas
Hejnewar
Pentarctagon

As development team members (with Pentarctagon alone having ultimate veto power).

[matto]

This looks like the most simple outcome, quite based XD

I am excited to know the member limit for the balance team more than anything =) gl

[Jarom]

Having interacted with some candidates for a while, and researching past posts on forums and discord, I have formed following impression of the candidates (other than Dalas and Hejnewar, who I personally support more than most candidates below), listed in descending order of preference (meaning, SkyEnd is my top pick):

SkyEnd - extensive MP experience, very proactive approach including actual own in-game real testing, concise and accurate explanations, slightly immature, but not overly so

Forest Dragon - hands-on experience in matters of balance and around, a bit stuck in the past but not foolishly so, a bit too categorical in his judgement but not too obstinate, a bit too ad-personam at times but not disqualifyingly so

Lord-Knightmare - very active in a variety of content, good grasp of the community, actively discussing stats and judging their impact on existing content, open for feedback and other opinions but not just repeating other's opinions in an echo chamber

Mirion - active in balance topics, raises a broad range of issues from lore-related to exact stats in comparison to other units, is not afraid to present a dissenting opinion (which is important to prevent group thinking), actively proposes alternative solutions and is on constant lookout against eristic plays (which I daresay, happen here more than healthy discourse)

Matto - experienced competetive MP player with a track of good suggestions, but it's hard to tell whether he's serious or not and that impacts proper discussion - probably a good complement for SkyEnd to test-play against though, has a similar skillset

dwarftough - now that's an interesting case, on the front he has solid relevant credits (Afterlife), and compelling points, but from how little I've seen him show interest in topic of mainline balance it's hard to see why he's even a candidate, he really said little and is keeping his cards close to his chest - otherwise is ok, I just had trouble placing him on the grounds of little engagement found

igorbat - seems to be much less active in global community than other players listed, though with the little I've found he appears to have sufficient knowledge and experience in matters of MP to contribute to the team - though also seems to be overly combative in non-balance matters, even more than balance itself - or just has personal vendetta against Hejnewar? I find it difficult to tell from what little I've found written, and from the little interaction I had with him before this 1.18 thing blew out of proportion he seemed more reasonable than this

Mechanical - lots of credits, normally should be a decent candidate, but seems to take eristic approach to discussion (or just has unconscious trouble accepting different opinions) and I've seen him ignore people representing other POVs (exhibits susceptibility to false consensus effect, among others), so while not completely disqualified, he's most likely not gonna help furthering a healthy discourse on future of balance

[igorbat99]

Let me go through the actual statements presented.

0) “researching past posts on forums and discord”

1) statement: regarding dwarftough: “but so far reading between the lines I'm starting to suspect that he's here either to block any changes that would affect Afterlife directly (via base stat change)”
Truth: AfterLife Rated is based on its own era and independent from default. Anyone involved with AfterLife Rated would have known that. It is on forums, for example, here – viewtopic.php?t=58614 it even has “new era” in the topic name.
dwarfough was always against “balancing mainline in such a way so AfterLife would be played better”
TL;DR - Jarom lied.

2)statement regarding igorbat99: “seems to be much less active in global community than other players listed”.
Truth: I have played 1vs1 competitive games (ladder, tournaments or events) on more-or-less the same level as SkyEnd and Matto during the last 6 months. I have hosted the largest event but mini-maps and AfterLife while my event was regarding actual competitive 1vs1 experience – Dune’s Festival.
TL;DR - Jarom lied and lied a lot.

I would wait for your apologies for your lies, Jarom. And I expect you to do so to everyone else you have lied about in your post. I haven’t listed everyone and every lie, so, please, this time do your homework properly.

[Pentarctagon]

Soooo anyway, the current balancing team that's been decided upon are the current MP/SP leads (Hejnewar and Dalas) and then Lord-Knightmare, SkyEnd, and matto. Obviously they can also discuss balancing changes with other people outside that group and the people in the team can be changed as necessary, but these are the people who will be part of the balancing team as of right now.

[Jarom]

Let me go through the actual statements presented.

Well, you definitely only went through 3, so implying that's all is outrageous.

Truth: AfterLife Rated is based on its own era and independent from default. Anyone involved with AfterLife Rated would have known that. It is on forums, for example, here – viewtopic.php?t=58614 it even has “new era” in the topic name.

I'm aware of that - but I'm also aware, that dwarftough literally copied all 1.16 unit files (with some modification), so that they could work. That in itself shows, that 1.18 in his opinion affected Afterlife enough, to make him consider a revert. In fact, while I'm not involved in Afterlife community, I see no such era on earlier version.

dwarfough was always against “balancing mainline in such a way so AfterLife would be played better”

That, in combination with the fact that he considers 1.16 stats a better option, would support my theory, that dwarftough takes his add-on as having more priority than the rest of the game - and that he's disinterested in making any serious changes (on a side note, a lot of changes from 1.16 listed in Afterlife Rated forum thread are suprisingly similar in spirit to Hejnewar's ideas for 1.18/1.20 that got much backlash)

TL;DR - Jarom lied.

Blatant manipulation, not a TL;DR from your side here.

I have played 1vs1 competitive games (ladder, tournaments or events) on more-or-less the same level as SkyEnd and Matto during the last 6 months. I have hosted the largest event but mini-maps and AfterLife while my event was regarding actual competitive 1vs1 experience – Dune’s Festival.

I stand corrected - you exhibit less activity on the forums and discord (on which, as you yourself noted, I did my research) than most other players listed, counted by number of posts. I know of no way of veryfing your server community engagement in multiplayer other than checking that you have played the game - and in fact, for Dune Festival I only see that you set up a bot, published a content promo notice and published results afterwards as the mentions of it ever taking place - does my search miss something else of importance?

TL;DR - Jarom lied and lied a lot.

I see no lie here, as evident above. My statement was properly qualified, and expressed my impression from data gathered.

I would wait for your apologies for your lies, Jarom.

No lie made, no apology needed.

And I expect you to do so to everyone else you have lied about in your post. I haven’t listed everyone and every lie, so, please, this time do your homework properly.

If something else has been missrepresented, I stand open for corrections, but I see no falsity so far.

Soooo anyway, the current balancing team that's been decided upon are the current MP/SP leads (Hejnewar and Dalas) and then Lord-Knightmare, SkyEnd, and matto. Obviously they can also discuss balancing changes with other people outside that group and the people in the team can be changed as necessary, but these are the people who will be part of the balancing team as of right now.

Good!

[DuncanDill]

Soooo anyway, the current balancing team that's been decided upon are the current MP/SP leads (Hejnewar and Dalas) and then Lord-Knightmare, SkyEnd, and matto. Obviously they can also discuss balancing changes with other people outside that group and the people in the team can be changed as necessary, but these are the people who will be part of the balancing team as of right now.

Seems like a good list Though I was personally rooting for FD, with the way that this works, I think its nice. Looking forward to 1.20!

[Mirion147]

Looks like the team most likely to achieve success!

[Mechanical]

Mechanical - lots of credits, normally should be a decent candidate, but seems to take eristic approach to discussion (or just has unconscious trouble accepting different opinions) and is overall not very cooperative (exhibits susceptibility to false consensus effect, among others), so while not completely disqualified, he's most likely not gonna help furthering a healthy discourse on future of balance

Just for the record, in addition to the people I've co-published addons with, I've collaborated with many authors. For example, I helped Anekron with The Rootless, drew the dwarf mage graphics for Ashmyr's "Through the Dwarven Roots", helped FD with his personal project Spartan, drew sprites for Dalas for his personal projects (HttT rework, TDG, EI). I've even collaborated with people who are now my usual opponents in the discussion - in particular, I drew maps for Mirion's campaign Up the River Bork and reworked some maps from the Heir to the Throne together with Hejnewar. You can easily check this by looking at the credits of the aforementioned projects.

For example, as part of my last balance PRs, I considered the feedback of Dalas on Marshal's stats and made changes with it in mind.

I'm also currently collaborating with several authors. Thus, statements about my intractability are nothing more than the spread of lies.