Balance changes for Wesnoth 1.20

[Spannerbag]

...I wanted to split MP and SP balance even before but people didn't like that you should talk with them not with me.

I'd like to better understand why things are the way they are.
Any suggestions as to where to look / who to ask gratefully appreciated (PM if you prefer).

...I will only answer good questions here.

Hope this counts as one!

Cheers,
-- Spannerbag

[Temuchin Khan]

"As primarily foragers and hunters, most elves learn to become proficient archers from a young age. Besides being only a practical skill, archery is also a common pastime and many competitions are held in sport for the entertainment of spectators and participants alike. This ability is readily turned to battle in times of war, where many elves will wield bows as their weapons of choice. Though not as sturdy as their human or orc counterparts, Elvish archers are still effective combatants, especially when fighting from the safety of their forests. Moreover, those Elves who specialize in the bow say that their natural affinity for that weapon mysteriously manifests in a mild aura of protection against certain attacks. This phenomenon is poorly understood and widely disputed, but Elvish Archers swear it is real."

Sounds too contrived in my opinion.

And if we were talking about an ordinary human unit, yes, it would be contrived. But Elves are more than a little more mystical. Who is to say what might or might not be possible for an Elf?

[ForestDragon]

And if we were talking about an ordinary human unit, yes, it would be contrived. But Elves are more than a little more mystical. Who is to say what might or might not be possible for an Elf?

Thing is, the lore implications are more than just "would elves be able to do that", it's also "if they can do this for one unit line, why don't they do it for other unit lines?", and the fact that it breaks a theme that the elves had for all of wesnoth's history as a game.

[Mirion147]

If we're talking contrived then say that the elves who pursue archery above all else are granted use of (insert your choice of wood here) which is strong enough to be used in defense and has kept many an archer from take a blade to the gut.

That being said, I don't actually think this change is necessary or fits well thematically.

[ForestDragon]

That being said, I don't actually think this change is necessary or fits well thematically.

Agreed, it's hard to neatly justify neatly it in lore, it is a deviation from the factions' theme, and the gameplay problems that it supposedly solves can be addressed in many other ways.

[ForestDragon]

Im also listening to your opinion and since this makes me too emotional then I will simply change the communication method to less direct. And I will only answer good questions here. It will also allow me to judge community sentiment better since this truly is just a small portion of the community here.

If you want to talk directly I welcome anyone to the Saturday stream where drama is appreciated for the content.

Regards.

If you are unable to handle player feedback on the game's main forum, aka the intended place for balance discussions to take place, then that raises even more doubts about whether you are fit for your position. The very nature of this role requires public interaction with the community, and a comments on a stream somewhere is not somewhere people look to discuss things so significant for wesnoth.

[Temuchin Khan]

And if we were talking about an ordinary human unit, yes, it would be contrived. But Elves are more than a little more mystical. Who is to say what might or might not be possible for an Elf?

Thing is, the lore implications are more than just "would elves be able to do that", it's also "if they can do this for one unit line, why don't they do it for other unit lines?", and the fact that it breaks a theme that the elves had for all of wesnoth's history as a game.

Well, that's why I phrased it the way I did. "Those Elves who specialize in the bow" rules out the other Elven unit lines.

I mean, I get what you're saying. But if Hejnewar is convinced this is necessary, I think a solution could be found.

[SexyPringles]

So you are just not understanding this part. Well this unit has to be good but not op against many many different threats. But main problem were undead. Right now I proposed two solutions:
a) negative parry - which makes ghoul and skeleton both better in dealing with it and makes use of burner harder and requires some protection thats the simpler one for me
b) no melee - which doesnt make skeleton as good (still helps), but because unlike skeleton ghoul doesnt actually have good blade resistance it actually helps ghoul a lot by removing a lot of the punishment it woul otherwise take when attacking burner, being able to withstand damage that will come back on burner turn easier and generally allows it to counter burner much better thru multiple turns

It is not overpowered against every faction, it is consequence of me needing that 7-3 fire raned else where, thus reducing options I have to balance it with.

I see what you mean now and it seems like ghoul is the underlying problem then. Skeleton has pretty great blade resistance already so he can take the melee hits of a burner, ghoul not so much with it's 10% blade resistance. idk how it would go against burner if it would be increased to 20%, maybe it's enough, maybe it isn't. Ghoul is getting a buff anyway so that's maybe one possible stat increase too. But maybe that would also make ghould too tanky but i kinda like the idea of undeads having their one tank unit, but idk would it be too broken. Just some food for though.

I would actually like to nerf it a bit more and give it some kind of ability but I dont think people will agree due "making the game more complex".

I think tweaking the resistances would be probably enough, parry as a nerf would probably work too but not my first choice tbh. Probably the reason I'm not that big of a parry fan is because terrain and where you position your troops plays a huge role in the gameplay and getting a parry nerf feels like I'm getting betrayed like Caesar by his senators and Brutus . But I'm kinda curious what kind of other ability you thought up

[IPS]

Been curious and read the mentioned changes, changes I trully agree the most

1) Fencer no impact weakness, it allows him to finally counter something and loyalists have bad blade attackers at lv1 in overall
2) Ghoul rework at ressistances is needed, while pierce type resistance is more valuable as a single, but faction needs more reworked ghoul.
3) HI is odd, but that unit by itself is garbo C- or even D tier... being the slowest movement type is hell annoying. Anything makes it more viable is welcome.
4) Elf archer blade res is weird because why would archers have blade resistances while fighters not? , even if in terms of balance is needed, it's still very rare, but neutral to this point.
5) Been rare that rebels were hiring human mages in their faction for real long, also neutral to this change.
6) I haven't played dunefolks that much, but I think no melee pyro is a better option that negative accuracy/parry on melee.
7) Is 12-2 old 1.16 fire ranged value for orcish slurgbow? if yes I see no problem in reverting this change only in the fire ranged.

Also default needs fresh air after real long, but not changes done by "because yes" , also community should also propose alternative to changes if they disagree with something, so at that point I'm either neutral to both sides.


While drake is the only defafult faction .... that feels out of default standards, believe me, balancing things without considering drakes existence is a lot easier cause I got problems at faction design in Ageless while trying to make them "viable" vs drakes...

[Roge_Tebnelok]

If we're looking to improve SP as well, what about adding an alternative L2-only fire damage advancement to the Thunderer? AFAIK this might be too strong vs Undead or Woses, but I tentatively imagine it's easier to level a Thunderer vs Loyalists due to their cavalry.

Now, after a few games Undead vs Dwarves, this seems even more needed. Ghosts are the main problem for dwarves, not HI.

[Skyend]

Even a small portion is better than one dude.

[ForestDragon]

5) Been rare that rebels were hiring human mages in their faction for real long, also neutral to this change.

Yeah, mages being replaced is something I am okay with too, but now the main debate is "whole new quickcaster line" vs "lvl1 version of sorceress". Hejne is firmly on the new line side, while I, Dalas and name are more on the lvl1 sorceress side.

I think the lvl1 sorceress could be either 5-4 ranged arcane or 7-3 ranged arcane (the latter would help stand out from elf archer), since it has to level into sorceress's 7-4 attack.

Elf archer blade res is weird because why would archers have blade resistances while fighters not? , even if in terms of balance is needed, it's still very rare, but neutral to this point.

So far it has been a mostly unpopular idea here on the forums, and many of the problems it's supposed to solve can be fixed in other ways.

7) Is 12-2 old 1.16 fire ranged value for orcish slurgbow? if yes I see no problem in reverting this change only in the fire ranged.

no, it was 15-2 before. Hejne wanted to nerf it to 12-2 for 1.20 but then changed his mind to "increase xp but make big buffs to lvl3" instead

HI is odd, but that unit by itself is garbo C- or even D tier... being the slowest movement type is hell annoying. Anything makes it more viable is welcome.

HI is something that does need a few buffs, that much I and many others can agree on, but Hejne is trying to turn HI into something unrecognizable. And additionally, his main argument why simpler buffs based on current stats would not work is that "HI would be too strong against Knalga"

I believe that this problem could be more elegantly addressed this way by adjusting the loyalist vs knalga matchup, as I proposed earlier:

1) some stat or price buff to HI, not sure on details yet
2) to compensate the buff, lower HI's impact resistance from 10% to 0% on lvl1 (lore justification is simple - armor is lower quality than shock trooper's), therefore HI takes more damage from dwarf fighters and footpads
3) footpad's ranged attack buffed from 5-2 to 6-2, melee nerfed from 4-2 to 3-2 (this needs the impact resistance nerf to HI for the desired effect, otherwise 6-2 is rounded to 5-2 from the 10% resistance)

Even a small portion is better than one dude.

Exactly, hejne is a much smaller portion of the community than the people who criticize his ideas. And the latter group has people from all parts of wesnoth's society - players, modders, even two devs (Dalas, name)

[lhybrideur]

I have to say that I myself am not found of the lvl1 sorceress idea, although this is what I also thought at some time.
I think having a whole new line would be more elegant than having two units lvling up to the same unit line, which would be a first in Wesnoth afaik and might feel boring/simplistic.

[ForestDragon]

than having two units lvling up to the same unit line, which would be a first in Wesnoth afaik

It wouldn't be the first, since Peasant and Woodsman can both level into Bowman

Personally I am in favor of either

a) lvl1 sorceress
b) if a whole new line does get added, giving it a third cold attack to fix the drake matchup issues the hejne mentioned (and used as a justification for the archer buff, an argument that void become invalid if the elves simply get a better anti-drake tool), since it would be boring to have two arcane-only mages

though hejne so far has reacted rather negatively to both ideas

[Hejnewar]

I'd like to better understand why things are the way they are.
Any suggestions as to where to look / who to ask gratefully appreciated (PM if you prefer).

I guess I can explain but would you mind what you want to know so I can actually answer? Like why there isnt a split? I believe I even already mentioned that in this topic however if you want to know more I guess I can send you like github topic link.

But I'm kinda curious what kind of other ability you thought up

Secondary attack with stun or taunt that wouldreduce damage delt to other units if unit was taunted by the soldier. However I dont think they fit particularily well, they kinda change the role however not by that much.

(and used as a justification for the archer buff, an argument that void become invalid if the elves simply get a better anti-drake tool)

That a quarter truth since there are 4 reasons not one. However there only one that fits is mentioned. How convenient.

"because yes"

Is there something you would like me to explain better?

comments on a stream somewhere is not somewhere people look to discuss things so significant for wesnoth

Maybe for you but many people come and many discuss. You might not like it but I take them the same as people here. Anyway dwarftough role was created because Im not the best at it but I still try and I expected and even asked for help with the issues he had but he never responded nor helped me with anything.