Balance changes for Wesnoth 1.20

[Roge_Tebnelok]

I agree with where you're coming from, but I don't feel it's a serious lore issue for Mages to be cheaper than Horsemen. While Horsemen are definitely more plentiful in-universe, compared to mages they also consume a lot more food and require a lot more equipment - both factors that could plausbly lead to their higher cost.

If they weren't that expensive, like 21 instead of 24, it would make more sense lore and balancewise.

Having access to fire damage is VERY significant though.

Only against units with piercing resistances, which aren't that common. I could name most of them.

This seems reasonable to me. I also appreciate that it makes their HP similar to the Master Bowman - 56 HP felt unusually low for a high-level orc.

Master Bowman's current HP is 67.

I'd been thinking only fearless+intelligent, fearless+resilient, and fearless+strong. I feel that's the simplest option, but I don't feel too strongly about it if you think something else makes sense.

Quick is the second strongest trait after healthy, and if HI is to remain slower than most of the units, it needs the possibility to be as fast as the norm. Whom I would slow and make cheaper, though, is Footpad, them being as fast as heavy horse in armor just doesn't feel right, but you will porbably disagree on that.

Would 18g/19g and 10% impact resist be acceptable, or still too brick-ish? As you mentioned in a previous post, I do have concerns about a 0% impact resist HI (particularly if the unarmored Fencer ALSO has 0%).

18 sounds fine, but I personally disagree on HI and Fencer's impact resistance. Hejnewar said that's for dwarves and outlaws, but how often do you use melee units againts HI anyway, when you have so much ranged units. No other fraction, aside from the Rebels and Drakes has so much units who can shoot from the level 1. And Footpads aren't strong enough in damage on level 1 for them to see the much of the difference between 0 and 20% impact resistance, which makes sense against more damage-oriented units like trolls or woses. As for the Fencer, I can understand their cold resistance as much as that of Bat's but them having no vulnerability to impact, but only to slashing and piercing doesn't make sense. Why do Footpads and Thieves have it, then?

[Roge_Tebnelok]

I wanted separate era for default mp, you were against it. Now I see some people in this thread bringing that back up and Im again in favour of it. But are you?

If these changes are to be separated from SP and default MP, I won't mind them.

[Hejnewar]

I remember you mentioning this in the original post as well. While I'm not an expert on Dunefolk, I think that removing the melee attack feels preferrable, and I would support that.

Then I will change that later. I think I can also go for like weak attack at a cost of some hp. But they dont have a lot and I dont want them to be super squishy.

This seems reasonable to me. I also appreciate that it makes their HP similar to the Master Bowman - 56 HP felt unusually low for a high-level orc.

Nice. Then I guess I can add this as well later.

Or alternatively, is there any way to alter Steadfast and possibly the HI's base resistances to achieve a similar effect, without breaking the Dwarvish Guardsman? Steadfast is basically only used on the Guardsman line (Hoplites don't count) so ideally we could use that one ability for two major unit lines, instead of creating a new separate-but-similar ability. UMC would be a concern, however.

I would rather just creat new ability preferaby that can have different values for HI and Dune Soldier rather than change steadfast. And yes DS also needs some changes cuz the brick syndrome kicking in a bit too much already and elves have tough time against it.

Would 18g/19g and 10% impact resist be acceptable, or still too brick-ish? As you mentioned in a previous post, I do have concerns about a 0% impact resist HI (particularly if the unarmored Fencer ALSO has 0%).

Now time for explanation why it is so hard to make a good change. You see im aiming for viability of a unit in as many matchups as possible. I want there to be multiple choices and I also want to see different compositions of units being played in different matchups. 18/19g would definitley fix HI in vs dwarf matchup with 10% of impact resistance. However that cost increase also affects other matchups making HI not viable in them anymore. For that reason I preferd to just reduce the resistance of it.

Or hey, here's a really random idea: what about buffing the bejeezus out of the HI but doubling/tripling their upkeep? That would prevent stalling (I think?) and is probably the most "historically-accurate" way to go ...although I admit messing with upkeep is likely too weird to add into core.

I honestly love the idea. Its stupid but fun. That can be done, that would fix the stalling completely. At the price of even 18g it would turn into amazing maybe even all-iner and offensive unit. Basically being equivalent of two level 1 9g units (which I made already but still have to be careful not be make them too all iny...) I would have to go to like 20-24g if thats the case. I even made such unit in sub-factions. It is 26g Horseman at lvl 2. It is stupidly fun. Surprisingly even somewhat balance.

[Dalas120]

This seems reasonable to me. I also appreciate that it makes their HP similar to the Master Bowman - 56 HP felt unusually low for a high-level orc.

Master Bowman's current HP is 67.

Hej's proposed change involves raising the Slurbow's HP from 56 to 66, which is what I was referring to.

Quick is the second strongest trait after healthy, and if HI is to remain slower than most of the units, it needs the possibility to be as fast as the norm.

Could you elaborate on this? Hej's proposal involved raising the HI's base movement from 4 to 5, so on flat they'd be just as fast as any other non-quick unit (though slower on other terrain due to their poor movetype).

Whom I would slow and make cheaper, though, is Footpad, them being as fast as heavy horse in armor just doesn't feel right, but you will porbably disagree on that.

I actually agree with you, from a lore perspective at least. Speeds in Wesnoth are all over the place - realistically, mounted units should move at 4x or more the speed of non-mounted units! And birds/bats would be another 4x on top of that.

Of course, it would be completely absurd game mechanics to have bats with 100mp or spearmen with 1mp. As realism goes, I do think it would make sense for the footpad to be 1mp slower, but I don't think it's so severe that we need to change MP balance and affect UMC just to make that change. I feel that what we have right now is an acceptable approximation.

Hejnewar said that's for dwarves and outlaws, but how often do you use melee units againts HI anyway, when you have so much ranged units.

I'm not an expert, but my limited understanding is that the Knalgans' current best counter to the HI is the Dwarvish Fighter with his hammer. Hejnewar knows a lot more than I do though.

Then I will change that later. I think I can also go for like weak attack at a cost of some hp. But they dont have a lot and I dont want them to be super squishy.

Great, I'm glad to hear it.

I honestly love the idea. Its stupid but fun. That can be done, that would fix the stalling completely. At the price of even 18g it would turn into amazing maybe even all-iner and offensive unit. Basically being equivalent of two level 1 9g units (which I made already but still have to be careful not be make them too all iny...) I would have to go to like 20-24g if thats the case. I even made such unit in sub-factions. It is 26g Horseman at lvl 2. It is stupidly fun. Surprisingly even somewhat balance.

Ok, sounds exciting! Do you feel that such a change would allow for keeping the HI's base toolkit more similar to its current 1.18 iteration (though ofc with buffs to damage/hp/etc), or would it still be necessary to change movetype / ranged resistance / impact resistance?

I would also be very interested in hearing whether others think such a change to upkeep is appropriate, or if such a change would feel too unusual for core. I like the concept, but I'm hardly unbiased.

[Spannerbag]

Just a query:

As this is an add-on, I presume your changes will not affect units used SP campaigns?
Or am I missing something (not for the first time)?

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

They will affect SP, hejne just made an add-on so players can preview his changes. When 1.20 comes out, he wants those changes to apply to both MP and SP and add-ons, just like he changed things in 1.18

Ah. Thanks. Oh well... another round of campaign rebalancing for SP looms.

Cheers,
-- Spannerbag

[Roge_Tebnelok]

Hej's proposed change involves raising the Slurbow's HP from 56 to 66, which is what I was referring to.

I've got it wrong, sorry.

Could you elaborate on this? Hej's proposal involved raising the HI's base movement from 4 to 5, so on flat they'd be just as fast as any other non-quick unit (though slower on other terrain due to their poor movetype).

Well, every faction needs a tank, who is slower but better protected, Dwarves, Drakes and Undead kind of subvert this, but only in speed. I think by default it should remain as slow as it is now, with possibility to be quick, but in separate era I have no issues.

Whom I would slow and make cheaper, though, is Footpad, them being as fast as heavy horse in armor just doesn't feel right, but you will porbably disagree on that.

I actually agree with you, from a lore perspective at least. Speeds in Wesnoth are all over the place - realistically, mounted units should move at 4x or more the speed of non-mounted units! And birds/bats would be another 4x on top of that.

Of course, it would be completely absurd game mechanics to have bats with 100mp or spearmen with 1mp. As realism goes, I do think it would make sense for the footpad to be 1mp slower, but I don't think it's so severe that we need to change MP balance and affect UMC just to make that change. I feel that what we have right now is an acceptable approximation.

Horses can run faster, but their walking speed is almost equal to human, they are better sprinters, but worse runners, as they tire quickly, while a healthy human can easily outpace them in a day. But we don't have sprint mechanic, so they are just faster.

I'm not an expert, but my limited understanding is that the Knalgans' current best counter to the HI is the Dwarvish Fighter with his hammer. Hejnewar knows a lot more than I do though.

That's why I proposed lowering HI slashing resistance to 40%, so that their ranged units, e.g. Scouts, would deal more damage, while using their terrain defense advantage. Only Fighters and Footpads have impact damage, but footpads are too weak so that the difference mattered, and Fighters have only melee attacks, which I would use only to defend weak units from HI or who else is more vulnerable to impact, I would never attack HI in melee if I have a choice of using ranged attacks and it's poor defense. If you aren't convinced, I can run some tests to prove this right or wrong. But for that I need either an opponent willing to test it with me, and my main problem here is schedule, or pointers on where and how to run it alone, so it would be biased. But it also depends where will be the changes applied, as I said before.

[Temuchin Khan]

I really like Forest Dragon's idea here. Giving the Quickcaster Mage a cold attack sounds like a good alternate solution to Rebels-Drakes match-ups.

Already expaline why Im not doing that.

In that case, maybe people's concerns about the bufff to the Elvish Archer's defenses could be resolved by adjusting the unit description?

Perhaps something like this:

"As primarily foragers and hunters, most elves learn to become proficient archers from a young age. Besides being only a practical skill, archery is also a common pastime and many competitions are held in sport for the entertainment of spectators and participants alike. This ability is readily turned to battle in times of war, where many elves will wield bows as their weapons of choice. Though not as sturdy as their human or orc counterparts, Elvish archers are still effective combatants, especially when fighting from the safety of their forests. Moreover, those Elves who specialize in the bow say that their natural affinity for that weapon mysteriously manifests in a mild aura of protection against certain attacks. This phenomenon is poorly understood and widely disputed, but Elvish Archers swear it is real."

[Hejnewar]

Good one.

Let's address the reason not for a change but why this exact unit. Rebels simply don't have that many units that could be buffed that way. Merman is water unit, scout is very mobile which puts it at disadvantage in regular combat, shaman would make the game hell for one player, maybe for both if it was the best thing. Wose is really polarizing between matchups. Mage is supposed to give the faction tempo and breakthrough power so I see it as rather concentrated offensive power. Fighter and any buff besides maybe +1 HP for some xp is simply not advised as power between main units should be similar. And that leaves elvish archer. Other units can be changed but for a change like this there really areny any candidates left.

[ForestDragon]

Or alternatively, is there any way to alter Steadfast and possibly the HI's base resistances to achieve a similar effect, without breaking the Dwarvish Guardsman? Steadfast is basically only used on the Guardsman line (Hoplites don't count) so ideally we could use that one ability for two major unit lines, instead of creating a new separate-but-similar ability. UMC would be a concern, however.

I changing existing abilities for the sake of a specific unit is a very bad idea. That is even worse than a HI with a new ability, since besides impacting every campaign/add-on that uses HIs, it also impacts every single add-on that uses steadfast, and that's quite a large chunk of them.

"As primarily foragers and hunters, most elves learn to become proficient archers from a young age. Besides being only a practical skill, archery is also a common pastime and many competitions are held in sport for the entertainment of spectators and participants alike. This ability is readily turned to battle in times of war, where many elves will wield bows as their weapons of choice. Though not as sturdy as their human or orc counterparts, Elvish archers are still effective combatants, especially when fighting from the safety of their forests. Moreover, those Elves who specialize in the bow say that their natural affinity for that weapon mysteriously manifests in a mild aura of protection against certain attacks. This phenomenon is poorly understood and widely disputed, but Elvish Archers swear it is real."

Sounds too contrived in my opinion.

I honestly love the idea. Its stupid but fun. That can be done, that would fix the stalling completely. At the price of even 18g it would turn into amazing maybe even all-iner and offensive unit. Basically being equivalent of two level 1 9g units (which I made already but still have to be careful not be make them too all iny...) I would have to go to like 20-24g if thats the case. I even made such unit in sub-factions. It is 26g Horseman at lvl 2. It is stupidly fun. Surprisingly even somewhat balance.

Ok, sounds exciting! Do you feel that such a change would allow for keeping the HI's base toolkit more similar to its current 1.18 iteration (though ofc with buffs to damage/hp/etc), or would it still be necessary to change movetype / ranged resistance / impact resistance?

I would also be very interested in hearing whether others think such a change to upkeep is appropriate, or if such a change would feel too unusual for core. I like the concept, but I'm hardly unbiased.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of raising unit upkeep values.

Good one.

Let's address the reason not for a change but why this exact unit. Rebels simply don't have that many units that could be buffed that way. Merman is water unit, scout is very mobile which puts it at disadvantage in regular combat, shaman would make the game hell for one player, maybe for both if it was the best thing. Wose is really polarizing between matchups. Mage is supposed to give the faction tempo and breakthrough power so I see it as rather concentrated offensive power. Fighter and any buff besides maybe +1 HP for some xp is simply not advised as power between main units should be similar. And that leaves elvish archer. Other units can be changed but for a change like this there really areny any candidates left.

Well, we can think of the cold attack idea like this:

in PvP there are not that many units weak to cold that aren't drakes. If the cold attack's damage is balanced in such a way that against most lvl1-2 non-drakes it's equal or worse than the arcane attack, it becomes almost nonexistent in most matchups, while in the drake matchup it makes the unit in a counter to the drake fighter.

[Hejnewar]

That fixes one problem. However there are still other reasons for the archer change. Even if we ignore dwarf and orc reasons, the dune folk reason will stay. I like the possible changes that it brings to those matchups anyway, as it encourages going for something other than fighter it might even be bit strong in comparison but since I have time I'm not very worried that something might be slightly off since I can just take hit point or two as compensation but that's besides the point.

In short yes that would help with drake's but it doesn't address my goal for other matchups.

[ForestDragon]

That fixes one problem. However there are still other reasons for the archer change. Even if we ignore dwarf and orc reasons, the dune folk reason will stay. I like the possible changes that it brings to those matchups anyway, as it encourages going for something other than fighter it might even be bit strong in comparison but since I have time I'm not very worried that something might be slightly off since I can just take hit point or two as compensation but that's besides the point.

In short yes that would help with drake's but it doesn't address my goal for other matchups.

In terms of dunefolk, if the dune soldier counters elf archer too well at the moment, I think it may be better to adjust that matchup on the dunefolk side. From my observation of this thread, it seems people are generally more fine with big changes to the dunefolk than to older units, so rebalancing the dune soldier around the elf archer would be received much more positively than balancing the elf archer around the dune soldier (and the soldier got a major rebalance not too long ago anyway that removed marksman)

[Hejnewar]

I will surprise you. It actually was. What happened is, archer got the blade resistance first in order to help with 3 default matchups and soldier got negative ranged parry latter in order to fit into that more, and it helped shaman massively anyway actually. It just kinda fit really well and did a lot good.

[Dalas120]

Well, every faction needs a tank, who is slower but better protected, Dwarves, Drakes and Undead kind of subvert this, but only in speed. I think by default it should remain as slow as it is now, with possibility to be quick, but in separate era I have no issues.

I agree with you about keeping the HI's moves at 4. But Hejnewar asserts 5MP is necessary to make it viable in multiplayer. I don't have enough MP knowledge to from an opinion either way.

That's why I proposed lowering HI slashing resistance to 40%, so that their ranged units, e.g. Scouts, would deal more damage

Dwarvish Scout is not available in multiplayer. The Knalgan factions' primary ranged units are the Thunderer and the Poacher, both of which deal Pierce damage.

I'd previously proposed lowering the HI's Pierce resist from 40% down to 30% for the same reasons you gave, but Hejnewar didn't feel that would be significant enough of a change.

[Roge_Tebnelok]

Dwarvish Scout is not available in multiplayer.

I'm intrigued. Why? In this addon/rebalance or by default? I probably have even less experience with MP than you, and I haven't tried it on 1.18, so I don't know what was changed.

[Dalas120]

I'm intrigued. Why? In this addon/rebalance or by default? I probably have even less experience with MP than you, and I haven't tried it on 1.18, so I don't know what was changed.

AFAIK Dwarvish Scout has never been available in default MP in any version of the game. I don't know the exact reason.

I changing existing abilities for the sake of a specific unit is a very bad idea. That is even worse than a HI with a new ability, since besides impacting every campaign/add-on that uses HIs, it also impacts every single add-on that uses steadfast, and that's quite a large chunk of them.

Yeah, I agree. Unfortunately, I think it's also problematic (though still better than a 0x0 ranged attack with parry) to create a brand new ability that's similar to Steadfast but not quite the same - especially since each of those abilities would only be used by a single unit line in core.

Perhaps one option could be to create a new ability that replaces Steadfast in core, on both the HI and Guardsman (and Hoplite)? That way we could avoid inflating core with extra abilities, but could also keep UMC completely unaffected.

Sounds too contrived in my opinion.

I agree. I also don't love blade resist on the Archer, though I will note that we already have a lot of resistances that aren't strongly supported in the lore. Fencers with 10% cold resist, Pikemen with 40% pierce and Swordsmen with 20% blade/impact despite both having identical armor, Cavalrymen having better resistances than Horsemen but less HP, Humans having 10% arcane resist but Orcs having 0%, basically everything about the Dunefolk...

scout is very mobile which puts it at disadvantage in regular combat

As far as SP or lore goes, I would probably prefer buffing the combat strength of the Scout over giving blade resist to the Archer, if that's feasible for MP.