Female Elf Archers--- what should we do?

[autolycus]

C

I'm sure you said that cos you're a programmer.

I don't think 'asexualize' is the main point. I think the units are mostly asexual, and until two kinds of elf archers were created, it wasn't an issue. Asexual is the default, with monosexual probably a close option.

[yeti]

It's funny how the [a]sexuality feeling depends on whether your native language has gramatical genders or not.

For me, an archer is male. I would have to use a different noun (and adjctives, etc.) for female racher, and since we translated archer with the mascuilne form my mind was fixed and now I see male arches with breast... what a mess.

And

Wesnoth is not medieval

I don't expect many women in a medieval army.

So A + C.

[Ayin]

The problem of naming is purely technical, and can be considered an i18n bug.

There are no women in medieval armies (nor there are elves, by the way), but, as Wesnoth Is Not Medieval, there may be females in Wesnoth armies.

So I re-state my opinion: "C".

[turin]

The problem of naming is purely technical, and can be considered an i18n bug.

There are no women in medieval armies (nor there are elves, by the way), but, as Wesnoth Is Not Medieval, there may be females in Wesnoth armies.

but this doesn't mean there are, or that it is a good idea to have them when it causes problems and really is kind of stupid.

[Ayin]

I really don't see the point of those who oppose the gender thing. It is a cool cosmetic feature without any incidence to gameplay. The so-called "problems" it causes are... Well, I don't even think that any issue raisen against this feature can be considered a problem. Except the i18n issue that is rather easy to fix.

Yeah, variety in graphics is good. Especially if the graphics are already there. Nobody said that 1.0 would require each unit to have a female version.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Yeah, variety in graphics is good.

I would disagree completely...

Especially if the graphics are already there. Nobody said that 1.0 would require each unit to have a female version.

I am against the inclusion of any subsequent alternate versions. I suppost the removal of the current ones for two forms of consistency.

[Dacyn]

Especially if the graphics are already there.

The graphics should not be considered "there" until they are ready for 1.0, IMO. Otherwise artists have to work to improve graphics that they don't even like...

[turin]

Yeah, variety in graphics is good

no, variety in graphics makes you less able to tell which unit someone is. also IMHO it just looks stupid having one asexual archer and one female archer. the problem is the other one isn't even male-looking, it could go either way.

Especially if the graphics are already there.

the graphics aren't very good, though. and aren't likely to improve, since many people don't like the idea in the first place.

Nobody said that 1.0 would require each unit to have a female version.

If the graphics don't improve, which i predict they won't*... having female versions should be taken out altogether since the graphics aren't 1.0 quality, not nearly.


*: i wouldn't be suprised if one of the artists i've gotten mad at me recently made a "good" version to prove me wrong, though.

[Jetrel]

geez. Turin - I want you to know something. Of the entire human race in the game, I plan on making only a few more female units:

the thief line, and possibly some of the banditry (e.g. trappers).

That's all. The human army is themed as being medieval, and I'll respect any arguments that women wouldn't fight. Thieves and bandits are outside of the army, though certain types of them (thugs) would seem to be odd roles for women to play, and thus those won't be permuted either.

Elves are another matter. They're a f***ing fantasy race. We can do whatever we want, and you can't make a decent argument against it. Also, regarding graphical quality: The female archers suck no more than the male ones - francisco made wonderful graphics for most of the level-2 archers/warriors, but the level-1 units need a teensy bit of tweaking.

And I refuse to do that without fmuñoz's permission. I guess I'll prepare some graphics, and post them, and then YOU can go petition fmunoz to have them replaced if you like them more. However, our graphics are more than ready for "1.0" - some commercial games were shipped with much lousier unit graphics than ours.

[Bander]

Hey, man, Female archers just confuse things. We shouldn't have more than one image for the same unit; why bother, just make a new unit. I think that the 2nd level and 3rd level archers look pretty female right now. Get rid of the guy, or leave it the heck alone. There's no point to making things more confusing like this. I hate it when I get a female archer. I never level or recall her. It's not because I'm sexist, its because its just wierd. We should have only one image for each unit, be it male or female.

[Jetrel]

Actually, I would like to have multiple images for the same unit. Done right, it would make the game look WAAY better.

Bungie used something like this in Myth, the fallen lords - in that units of the same type came in different colors AND heights. Likewise, Blizzard had a good deal of this in their game Diablo II.


Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing permutations based on traits - the strong guys, for one example, looking just a smidge beefier.

I absolutely support adding more and more graphics to the game - multiple unit images are somewhat like multiple variants of terrain - this is what makes the game look more natural, and less like someone made all the units from the same mold.


Old tabletop roleplaying games often had many, many different miniatures of the same darn unit - orcs, for example. This would be a lot easier to do if we weren't making the graphics by hand, but if, say, they were procedurally generated, as in a 3d engine, I would code it so that each unit walked a bit different, held his weapon a bit different, and looked a bit different.

This type of coding is what WETA-DIGITAL used to code those battle scenes in LOTR, and that's why the movement of the troops looked so amazingly real.

If for some reason you have problems identifying a unit, you can mouse over it. Personally, though I never have this problem with level-1, I sometimes have trouble telling without a close look whether a high-level archer is male or female.

And that is precisely what I intended to happen. The first levels will eventually receive a touch-up, until then, work on other things.

[scott]

I like the different images. It feels less like a chess game and more like a movie (sorry if that sounds stupid). Some people are hung up on appearance correlating with power, and I can't say they're 100% wrong, but I don't think the female archer is that out of line. If a female unit needs editing, it's the great mage/victorian lady.

[Bander]

Why have multaple images for the same unit? Unless they look really similar, there seems to be no point IMHO. Why don't female mages wear their hoods? I find it jarring to recruit a mage, only to find that it looks weird. Female mages looks so darn girly, female elves are so well endowed. Female great mages look more like they would rather clean houses with their magic than shoot fireballs at someone. If I were a female mage, I would darn well wear my hood, instead of showing off my ribbon. Could you picture a CEO of a corperation wearing something like that? This is the same level of power here! Is this an attempt to remove sexism from the game, by adding female units? It just comes off as strange and unncessary. Female archers look like sharpshooters. Do girls not need helmets? Why make it so different, when being subtle would be much more effective? Do we need a change in stance, a new hairdo, and a stylish new way to wear clothes for every female unit? No! If there are to be variations in different units, they should be subtle enough to notice on a glance, but not so much that they jump out like a alien from a space marines chest. Don't overplay it.

[Jetrel]

Why don't female mages wear their hoods? Female mages looks so darn girly. If I were a female mage, I would darn well wear my hood, instead of showing off my ribbon.

This is an idealized fantasy world, in a videogame - AT LEAST OUR FEMALE MAGES ARE WEARING CLOTHES. In many other games, female mages are dressed in what is basically a bikini, with shoulderpads, and a length of cloth hanging down in the front and back. Like Li'sar's costume, but with less armor.

The intent is that these women of power, in an ideal world where no one is ugly, are more than comfortable showing off, because they know no one would dare try to take advantage of them. Our society today has different standards of public modesty, but this is a fantasy game - which by definition lends itself to escapism.

Thus, they use the motifs of ... large breasts, showing the midriff, mostly bare legs, and fancy, cute animesque hair to try and make the girls "Pretty." This has some value, but I don't quite like the lengths they go to.

Thus, I made mine with clothes on. I'll attach, in another post, some of what goes on in other games, to show you why mine is vastly tame by comparison.

Do girls not need helmets?

The male archers are not wearing helmets - those are cloth caps, made in a style that was common for medieval soldiery, although there it was usually leather. I'd dig out a costuming book/some old engravings to show you, but rather I would just suggest you do so yourself. It would be illuminating for you.

female elves are so well endowed

and let me tell you, its the darndest thing - fmunoz always does portraits with superboobs, and by some odd trick of fate, most of my sprites end up looking that way. Meanwhile all of francisco's sprites have nearly non-existant breasts, and most women in my line-art are rather lacking in that department. Some bishounen anime shitheads mistake them for boys because many anime-style boys look like chicks.

Some people think anime is a form of child pornography.

It's a [censored] up world out there.

Frankly, I do agree with your interest in keeping the chest area more-or-less subtle. The unit I have made with, IMO, the most appealing rendition of such would be the sylph. I will tone down the female elvish archer, and try to make her look more like the male.

[Jetrel]

This is what is normal for other games. Don't ever complain about my female units looking too effeminate, ever again. I chose to make ones that looked pretty, but didn't run around in slut-suits like these.

If you don't understand why someone would want female units - well, I mean, how old are you, bander? This might sound rude, but... you seem rather young, based on your being from the US combined with your requisite grasp of the english language.