Female Elf Archers--- what should we do?
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From the horse's mouth:
This from the [censored] who made them. Uhm, I've never been especially fond of the level-1 images for the elvish archer/fighter. Neo did some work at adding more to their clothes to make them cooler, but he ended up overshooting in a big way and changing a lot of things that IMO, did not need to be, and SHOULD not have been changed.
*sigh*
I worked on those female images with Dave, cedric, and fmunoz. If we change the level-1 archer, I will need fmuñoz's permission - I don't want to tread on his admirable work.
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Now, what makes the female archer look more powerful is this: The male archer and male fighter are basically the same damn unit. The only change is the position of the arms, and that the fighter has a shield, and the archer a cap.
Now, one of the things fmunoz did, mostly for fluidity of animation, was that he gave mister archer a standing pose where his arm is right on his chest - this gives him a free, extra frame of animation for shooting his bow. Problem was, that to do the same for the female version would have obscured the chest area. The elves were already looking pretty damn effeminate to begin with - if it's not painfully obvious that one has a rack and the other doesn't, you're gonna have a hard time telling the sexes apart.
Thus, the female version had to have a much more _open stance, which makes her look a lot more imposing (it also is augmented by her being rather well-endowed, proportionally speaking).
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So to close I would like to say this: What we have, in fmuñoz's archers, and my female versions, is a decent 1.0 version of the image. They work, and they work just fine.
They could be better, and EP's comments serve to refine them, but they are not bad at all. This is certainly a good thing to discuss, and we may soon be in such a state as to work on these, but we really have a lot more important things to work on, things that currently lack a decent 1.0 version.
Like graphics for ... Owaec, for one example. Or a decent set of swamp tiles...
This from the [censored] who made them. Uhm, I've never been especially fond of the level-1 images for the elvish archer/fighter. Neo did some work at adding more to their clothes to make them cooler, but he ended up overshooting in a big way and changing a lot of things that IMO, did not need to be, and SHOULD not have been changed.
*sigh*
I worked on those female images with Dave, cedric, and fmunoz. If we change the level-1 archer, I will need fmuñoz's permission - I don't want to tread on his admirable work.
-----------------
Now, what makes the female archer look more powerful is this: The male archer and male fighter are basically the same damn unit. The only change is the position of the arms, and that the fighter has a shield, and the archer a cap.
Now, one of the things fmunoz did, mostly for fluidity of animation, was that he gave mister archer a standing pose where his arm is right on his chest - this gives him a free, extra frame of animation for shooting his bow. Problem was, that to do the same for the female version would have obscured the chest area. The elves were already looking pretty damn effeminate to begin with - if it's not painfully obvious that one has a rack and the other doesn't, you're gonna have a hard time telling the sexes apart.
Thus, the female version had to have a much more _open stance, which makes her look a lot more imposing (it also is augmented by her being rather well-endowed, proportionally speaking).
----------
So to close I would like to say this: What we have, in fmuñoz's archers, and my female versions, is a decent 1.0 version of the image. They work, and they work just fine.
They could be better, and EP's comments serve to refine them, but they are not bad at all. This is certainly a good thing to discuss, and we may soon be in such a state as to work on these, but we really have a lot more important things to work on, things that currently lack a decent 1.0 version.
Like graphics for ... Owaec, for one example. Or a decent set of swamp tiles...
Both stance and hair make her look more powerful IMHO.
And all the male evish archer units look quite effeminate so if you don't have the female versions to compare to you can use them for both genders.
What we had before were more or less gender neutral images. What we have now are female and effeminate ones...
And all the male evish archer units look quite effeminate so if you don't have the female versions to compare to you can use them for both genders.
What we had before were more or less gender neutral images. What we have now are female and effeminate ones...
-std::string font_name = "Vera.ttf";
+std::string font_name = "Bepa-Roman.ttf";
+std::string font_name = "Bepa-Roman.ttf";
why must it be so noticeable it is female? no difference is better than a small difference is better than a very noticeable difference.Jetryl wrote:Now, one of the things fmunoz did, mostly for fluidity of animation, was that he gave mister archer a standing pose where his arm is right on his chest - this gives him a free, extra frame of animation for shooting his bow. Problem was, that to do the same for the female version would have obscured the chest area. The elves were already looking pretty damn effeminate to begin with - if it's not painfully obvious that one has a rack and the other doesn't, you're gonna have a hard time telling the sexes apart.
Having the difference so obvious just looks wierd.
why must one have a headband and one not?Jetryl wrote:So to close I would like to say this: What we have, in fmuñoz's archers, and my female versions, is a decent 1.0 version of the image. They work, and they work just fine.
They could be better, and EP's comments serve to refine them, but they are not bad at all. This is certainly a good thing to discuss, and we may soon be in such a state as to work on these, but we really have a lot more important things to work on, things that currently lack a decent 1.0 version.
it makes them look like different units! and would people wear the same damn armor no matter what sex?For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
why must it be so noticeable it is female? no difference is better than a small difference is better than a very noticeable difference.Jetryl wrote:Now, one of the things fmunoz did, mostly for fluidity of animation, was that he gave mister archer a standing pose where his arm is right on his chest - this gives him a free, extra frame of animation for shooting his bow. Problem was, that to do the same for the female version would have obscured the chest area. The elves were already looking pretty damn effeminate to begin with - if it's not painfully obvious that one has a rack and the other doesn't, you're gonna have a hard time telling the sexes apart.
Having the difference so obvious just looks wierd.
why must one have a headband and one not?Jetryl wrote:So to close I would like to say this: What we have, in fmuñoz's archers, and my female versions, is a decent 1.0 version of the image. They work, and they work just fine.
They could be better, and EP's comments serve to refine them, but they are not bad at all. This is certainly a good thing to discuss, and we may soon be in such a state as to work on these, but we really have a lot more important things to work on, things that currently lack a decent 1.0 version.
it makes them look like different units! and would people wear the same damn armor no matter what sex?For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
Hear people, it is the voice of wisdom!Circon wrote:Is no-one reading Kam's siggy? Sheesh, the whole gender thing is a piece of crap IMO. Sexist, reverse-sexist, chauvinist, gender standards, "The Asexual Archer", graphics space, graphics differentiation...
The resoruces could be used so much better elsewhere. Just cut it out, people.
Read about the adventurers of my pen & paper RPG group
"How could drops of water know themselves to be a river? Yet the river flows on." - Guess who?
"How could drops of water know themselves to be a river? Yet the river flows on." - Guess who?
Like I said...
I think that gender stereotyping is not particularly useful. Think about units and unit properties first, not eye candy and gender flags. Would you stereotype based on race? It might be easier to do that visually, but I wouldn't advise it at all...
autolycus wrote:If you want two kinds of elvish archers, make them the STRONGBOW and the FASTBOW, or something like that. But don't make them male and female because that would probably be sexist or reverse-sexist or something. And that's not an issue for a game of this kind.
I think that gender stereotyping is not particularly useful. Think about units and unit properties first, not eye candy and gender flags. Would you stereotype based on race? It might be easier to do that visually, but I wouldn't advise it at all...
as kingfishers catch fire
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
Like I said...
I think that gender stereotyping is not particularly useful. Think about units and unit properties first, not eye candy and gender flags. Would you stereotype based on race? It might be easier to do that visually, but I wouldn't advise it at all...
autolycus wrote:If you want two kinds of elvish archers, make them the STRONGBOW and the FASTBOW, or something like that. But don't make them male and female because that would probably be sexist or reverse-sexist or something. And that's not an issue for a game of this kind.
I think that gender stereotyping is not particularly useful. Think about units and unit properties first, not eye candy and gender flags. Would you stereotype based on race? It might be easier to do that visually, but I wouldn't advise it at all...
as kingfishers catch fire
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
-
Elvish_Pillager
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- Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
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Agreed!Burnsaber wrote:Hear people, it is the voice of wisdom!Circon wrote:Is no-one reading Kam's siggy? Sheesh, the whole gender thing is a piece of crap IMO. Sexist, reverse-sexist, chauvinist, gender standards, "The Asexual Archer", graphics space, graphics differentiation...
The resoruces could be used so much better elsewhere. Just cut it out, people.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
I can't understand what Circon is advocating.
Does he want (a) diff. sexes for units removed and units made asexual, (b) graphics to be changed, or (c) us to stop arguing?
Does he want (a) diff. sexes for units removed and units made asexual, (b) graphics to be changed, or (c) us to stop arguing?
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
-
Elvish_Pillager
- Posts: 8137
- Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
- Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
- Contact:
A and C.turin wrote:I can't understand what Circon is advocating.
Does he want (a) diff. sexes for units removed and units made asexual, (b) graphics to be changed, or (c) us to stop arguing?
(At least, that is what I was supporting in his statement.
)It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
I'm for B and C.
"ILLEGITIMIS NON CARBORUNDUM"
Father of Flight to Freedom
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/FlightToFreedom
Father of Flight to Freedom
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/FlightToFreedom
We don't allocate resources in Wesnoth development. People work on what they choose to work on. On what they enjoy working on.Circon wrote: The resoruces could be used so much better elsewhere.
(and btw, arguing with any of the other points in this thread is something I definitely don't enjoy working on
)David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming