Modest ability proposal: Finesse

[Zarel]

Steelclads can't retaliate against Adepts.

o_O Neither can runesmiths/runemasters... And unlike runemasters, lords can retaliate against adepts.

[Skrim]

Steelclads can't retaliate against Adepts.

I think you got confused between the SoF Runesmith line and the "mainline" Runemaster.

The "mainline" Runemaster is a free-standing L3 with a 14-2 magical fire ranged attack and a non-magical melee hammer.

The SoF Runesmith/Runemaster are L2/3 Dwarves advancing from the Fighter line, with unusually low HP, slightly better resistances, and a magical melee impact attack. They lose their blade attack, and have no ranged capability whatsoever.

[A Guy]

Yes, I was getting a little confused there, thanks.

...Can we just pretend this conversation never happened?

[Aethaeryn]

And they're level 2s, anyway.

[Caphriel]

...Can we just pretend this conversation never happened?

Ninja distraction!
Does anyone else look at the thread title and immediately think that he's proposing some sort of cannibalism ability?

[Gambit]

The thread of a perfectly good ability proposal was killed and for the first time ever I had nothing to do with it

To the few people that basically said "people don't use fencers much so whats the point": This ability would make people use them more often.

To the people who realized the above statement about increase in use and then said "what about balance if they do get the duelist?": It would still be pretty hard to obtain. You'd have to focus all your energy on it really. Now I realize this gives more credence to the "whats the point" argument. But think about it this way. Having duelists with this ability increases the odds of winning without giving a guaruntee.

[Aethaeryn]

Not to mention that having at least a 50% chance to hit is incredibly weak compared to marksman. It basically only applies to elusive units on flat, or any unit on defensive terrain. Most units on defensive terrain only get 60%, which would only increase your odds to hit by 10%. In a Loys v. Drake match, it would only apply to Saurians, and only Saurians on defensive, non-village terrain. Saurians only have 60% defense, so it'd be barely effective at all.

[Neoskel]

Not to mention that having at least a 50% chance to hit is incredibly weak compared to marksman. It basically only applies to elusive units on flat, or any unit on defensive terrain. Most units on defensive terrain only get 60%, which would only increase your odds to hit by 10%. In a Loys v. Drake match, it would only apply to Saurians, and only Saurians on defensive, non-village terrain. Saurians only have 60% defense, so it'd be barely effective at all.

So maybe it wouldn't be so bad on the level 1? It does give about the same chance to hit units with higher defense as the chance to hit a ghost so it really isn't that bad (so it won't even give any advantage for fighting ghosts).

The main issue here is the high number of attacks that the fencer line already has, which coupled with the slightly increased hit-chance and most evasive units' blade weakness would cause them to quickly slaughter said evasive units. Especially coupled with skirmisher, which means it would be difficult to properly screen wounded evasive units and even regular wounded units on villages. That's why it has such a low hit percentage and i suggested it for the level 2 instead, to offset that.

We really can't know how balanced or unbalanced the idea (whether for the level 1 or 2) is without at least some actual testing really. It might be more balanced if it also came with a slight nerf to the fencer line's movement which would make their having skirmisher AND finesse less of a pain to deal with.

...Can we just pretend this conversation never happened?

Ninja distraction!
Does anyone else look at the thread title and immediately think that he's proposing some sort of cannibalism ability?

Well feeding IS pretty useless right now.

[Aethaeryn]

I wouldn't count on a lvl 1 that is in the Default Era getting any perks except for strict balancing reasons: the MP devs tend to be conservative about it. Then again, lvl 2s won't hurt. Half the time when they balance lvl 1s they don't apply the buff/nerf to the lvl 2 anyway. I personally like the idea because it gives a rather subtle improvement.

As for many strikes, I'd say that having many strikes makes a marksman/magical/whatever unit worse because the most inaccurate hitters are the 1-strike units. At least with a unit with multiple strikes, they're reliable enough to land hits sometimes. I've elaborated on this in several places before, about why I hate Thunderers and how it has to do a logical luck preference: those with fewer strikes will have a greater likelihood of doing their maximum damage, but they'll also have a greater likelihood of doing no damage at all. Expect frustrating, throwing-mice-at-the-wall moments and (in singleplayer) being-tempted-to-reload moments with these units. Those with many strikes will probably land somewhere in the middle of their damage range. Units like the fencer are much more reliable at doing some damage, but less reliable at doing max damage at the trade-off of very probably not doing 0 damage. A Thunderer with finesse would be far deadlier than a fencer with finesse, imo.

[PsychoticKittens]

I'm sure that statement above mine is why Aethaeryn plays Modern Combat, since most of the units with 1 shot have improved chance to hit, or when they miss they do half damage. ._. ooooh modern weapons and your failsafes.

Aside from that, a 10% increase with 5 strikes can make alot more difference than you think.

2/5 turns into 3/5 by theoretical standards. Ta~daaa. And we all hate those 1 hp survivors.
10 damage vs 15 damage (with a strong fencer attacking a saurian, if I didn't completely forget their stats.)

[Skrim]

Adding 'Finesse' to a level-1 Fencer might disturb the MP balance, and I doubt that it would happen. I see no problems in why it shouldn't be added to the Duelist and Master-at-Arms, though, perhaps at the cost of reducing their movement from 7 MP to 6.
As such, they already do pretty low damage for their level - most L2s do 28 to 36, and most L3s do 40 to 50 base damage with their main attack, while the Duelist and MaA do 25 and 35 respectively.

I don't see any other units that ought to get this ability though.

[Gambit]

Can people stop talking about how unbalanced saurians would be with this. Saurians were not even part of the OP.

[Aethaeryn]

Can people stop talking about how unbalanced saurians would be with this. Saurians were not even part of the OP.

If you're talking about my posts, I mentioned about how a fencer fighting a Saurian with the fencer using the "finesse" ability would work. Their 60% on some terrains is the only time where the fencer's version of marksman would come into play when fighting the Drakes faction... Not that important to note, just an observation. The 10% difference between marksman and finesse means it comes into play a lot less often.

[Gambit]

Can people stop talking about how unbalanced saurians would be with this. Saurians were not even part of the OP.

If you're talking about my posts, I mentioned about how a fencer fighting a Saurian with the fencer using the "finesse" ability would work. Their 60% on some terrains is the only time where the fencer's version of marksman would come into play when fighting the Drakes faction... Not that important to note, just an observation. The 10% difference between marksman and finesse means it comes into play a lot less often.

I meant the people who are talking about how unbalanced saurians with this ability would be. Maybe they misread your post -shrug-
Or maybe I misread one of yours as one of theirs. At any rate my oringinal comment stands.

[Neoskel]

So i believe that the general consensus is that this ability would not be a bad thing as initially described: at least 50% chance to hit in both offense and defense for the lvl 2 and 3 in the fencer line.

Any devs have any thoughts on this?