undead vs undead solution

[JW]

Man...this is gonna mess with the EOM stuff...the reasons behind Shadow damage that is...

As for a new name, what happened to Dispel? No matter the name I can't see a logical explanation for why Ghosts hurt each other so much...having the situation set up like that will surely make ANY name suggestion seem ridiculous....

[UngeheuerLich]

I think:

It should be called:

mystic(al)

or just

force

or energy

and i really think:

ghosts hurt themselves too much...

- they kill each other when they have full hp.

- they kill bats too easily...

my proposal: -30% on ghosts would be enough since gost have half hp than any other units.

-10% on bats: it would be enough to be killed in two hits by white mages.

[Velensk]

I like the new "holy" (though they ought to change the name) system better as it does not specificaly target undead. Though I think the ghosts ability to totaly wipe out each other and all other undead messes the match up.

[UngeheuerLich]

hmhm, use undead archers vs ghosts...

but with numbers can be played... as long as holy resistance of undead is lower than fire resistance by a significant amount...

so ghosts and bats, ghouls and WCs (as they already have) could get it improved a bit.

the only mess up for me seems the ghost vs ghost problem, but: if bats defend vs ghosts, the its ok!

[F8 Binds...]

I think this is a nice thing, but although ghost vs ghost is quicker than undead vs undead, it emphazizes spamming ghosts... I suggest a raise (YES, EVEN MORE MONEY) to the ghost price to 22. In order to make this funner, you need to have a unit that can counter the ghost that isn't a ghost. These are my concerns. With a price change, this reduces the amount of ghosts you can make in a single recruit from 100 gold from 5 to 4. Keep in note that holy damage comes with a price!

~The Infamous F8 Binds...

[Airk]

I endorse "Spirit" damage, or "Soul" Damage.

[UngeheuerLich]

If you increase the price of the ghost, something has to be done to the bat.

the ghost itself is not that powerful. (low damage overall, and low hp) it still is not vs some races and vs dwarves it is even worse.

you should consider: a ghost has 17 (or 18) hp and 50% resistance. so it is about 36 hp vs most units. it receives "double" healing, so in a long fight it will win usually.

a skelleton archer has 30 hp. vs ghost ranged it is about 70 hp. you do 6 damage per hit (divided by 2) so you kill a ghost with 6 hits and receive not much damage.

a ghost howeer does 4 damage and the archer receives 60% extra. so you do about 6 or 7 damage per hit. And you do not drain. So you need about 5 hits to kill the archer. and receive 2-3 damage.

so a ghost is a hard counter, but very expensive, but worth its cost against undead. but still very fragile and less effective in killing dark adepts. so don´t increase the cost.

[Grodot]

If you increase the price of the ghost, something has to be done to the bat.

the ghost itself is not that powerful. (low damage overall, and low hp) it still is not vs some races and vs dwarves it is even worse.

you should consider: a ghost has 17 (or 18) hp and 50% resistance. so it is about 36 hp vs most units. it receives "double" healing, so in a long fight it will win usually.

I agree something needs to increase the bats use, but Ghosts are a pain in the neck as is, hitting one with melee is hard because they get the 50% defense on all terrain, not to mention when you don't hit them they just regain more health. Their only real weak spot is in range, but even then ghosts tend to level up decently quick. In which case a wraith or shadow are tough opponents.

Though I have to say vampire bats are sad, maybe they need a lvl 2 stage to help them out a bit.

[irrevenant]

Giving ghosts 'holy' is awkward.

'Holy' makes so much sense as holy. If it has to be given to ghosts, I'd like to see the serial numbers filed off - give it the same effect as holy, but make it a weapon special and call it something else. "disrupting touch" maybe...

[IB]

As Gis said, "holy" is a transitionnal name, that makes more damage to magical creatures, we did not find a good name we all agree with, so for the moment it is still "holy".

Could you link me to a post with perhaps the forerunners for the new name of holy. We already have elemental [fire, cold] so I was thinking something like arcane might work, but it'd be interesting to see the full list of suggestions.

[Gus]

Giving ghosts 'holy' is awkward.

Then again, 1.3.1 is a DEVELOPMENT version, and the name is only temporary, so what's the big deal?

[Cuyo Quiz]

I'ma n idiot (yes, the typo is intentional. Feel free to quote out of context). I should have read this earlier.

Giving holy to Ghost, IMHO, is that sort of genius that only becomes percievable when someone makes a bomb out of it. I love how it ties to the Baneblade concept of the advancements and their essence-driven existence.

About changing holy: It seems clarity of meaning is a must, and thus i believe "dispel/disrupt" should be appropiate (yes, it shows function rather than nature, like piercing relates to pierce, but i guess we would have to live with it, just like happens with spam and Murphy's Laws). Otherwise, semantic ravings about mystical and divine and what not will come afloat.

Ah, well, i need to make some green tea now.

[Noyga]

There have been a ton on discussions about a the new new holy name before (on IRC, in some thread of this forum and as well by mail), almost everything has been proposed but so far we did not agree for one of these. Since there been a few flamewars about this, and because of the flood of these discussion we might have missed to consider a few ones, the developers consider that reoppening the discussion about the new holy damage type names does not help. Please let them take their time to calmly study the question.
Just one example the 'dispel' name describes well the idea behind this damage type, but sound bogus when it damages non magical creatures.

[UngeheuerLich]

If you increase the price of the ghost, something has to be done to the bat.

the ghost itself is not that powerful. (low damage overall, and low hp) it still is not vs some races and vs dwarves it is even worse.

you should consider: a ghost has 17 (or 18) hp and 50% resistance. so it is about 36 hp vs most units. it receives "double" healing, so in a long fight it will win usually.

I agree something needs to increase the bats use, but Ghosts are a pain in the neck as is, hitting one with melee is hard because they get the 50% defense on all terrain, not to mention when you don't hit them they just regain more health. Their only real weak spot is in range, but even then ghosts tend to level up decently quick. In which case a wraith or shadow are tough opponents.

Though I have to say vampire bats are sad, maybe they need a lvl 2 stage to help them out a bit.

you should not quote out of context.

Ghosts don´t drain vs undead and they are nerved vs races were they were rather overpowered (i.e. drakes)

vs dwarves they are also nerved a bit, but i don´t know the gryphons resistances vs holy were ghosts were alway not that good...

vs elves ghosts lost to archer and they are a bit buffed.

vs undead.... buff but not overpowered as i discussed above.

vs orks: nerf, don´t know if thats was a good idea, although i don´t know the trolls resistances vs them. ork archers are an even harder counter as it used to be.

loyalists: nerv, heavy infantry is even more dangerous now!

so a cost increase is definately not a good idea!