illusionist unit picture
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Christophe33
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illusionist unit picture
Since the icture of the lvl1 mage is apparently going to be phased out, I took it as a base for a Lvl1 illusionist (prestigiditator). I made it bright, with sparks and stars floating around. I also made a quick picture of the prestigiditator attack 1st frame using a hammer illusion (but gives real domage) and multiple image as defence. This picture would not fit fully in the mask but is a base to discuss the concept. A presentation text could be "The prestigiditator flashy appearance is another deguise to make it look less dangerous as he is "
Last edited by Christophe33 on March 2nd, 2004, 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never tell a dwarf that he shortchanged you!
what is a prestigiditator? i have never heard that as a suggested name for this unit.
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
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Christophe33
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Christophe33
- Posts: 826
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These are great spell effects and I love the picture of the illusionist, but (perhaps in another forum) can you describe the abilities of this unit and how they would work? Would a level 1 unit really be able to summon level 3 trolls, even if they are illusionary? It might be good to discuss balancing some of the abilities this unit should have, before you work too hard on creating the artwork. These images are great, but I don't this there is a consesus yet on how an illusionist's abilities will work, without being too powerful.
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Christophe33
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I already placed a post few days ago in Developper Discussion about the illusionist but nobody bothered to answerquartex wrote:These are great spell effects and I love the picture of the illusionist, but (perhaps in another forum) can you describe the abilities of this unit and how they would work? .
.My initial idea was that the illusionist would make a illusion duplicating the unit attacking him and doing dommage derived from that unit reduce to 50% at lvl1, 75% at lvl2 and 100% at lvl3. It is probably not possible to do it but I would have like to get an answer on that. The alternative would be a fix amount of domage using one or two fix illusion. The main concept is that the illusionist would have a stronger melee attack (through the illusions) than range attack contrary to the typical magician.
Never tell a dwarf that he shortchanged you!
Okay, so the illusionist has a special attack which allows him to make an illusion of any adjacent unit, and then attack that unit with it's illusionary double?
One problem with creating illusions was that i wanted to make sure one illusionist couldn't create hundreds of illusionary creatures that could run all over the map. Your illusionist doesn't actually create seperate units, instead he uses illusions as a more powerful melee attack.
Obviously attacking unit X with it's illusionary double wouldn't be very effective is that illusionary double could only do 50% or 75% of the original's damage. Wesnoth uses a bit of a rock/paper/sicsors strategy, attack horsemen with archers, archers with fighters, undead with mages etc. So attackng a unit X with an attack with is 50% of X's original attack, means that unit X is dealing a lot more damage than it is recieving.
I have a related idea, what if the illusionist could create an illusion based on any adjacent unit, and use that illusionary creature to attack any other ajcent unit. If a level 3 troll and a necromancer are attacking the illusionist, he could select the troll, create an illusion from it and then use that to attack the necromancer. Theoretically, he couldn't move while creating this illusion, so he can only use it on adjacent targets, and it would disappear at the end of his round. That way you could use an illusion derived from one creature on another. You mentioned this would only be a melee attack, does that mean if I create an illusionary archer, i am forced to use it's melee attack, what if i create an illusionary dark adept, does it have no attack?
The critical problem with this plan is that if the illusionist can copy any unit, you would have to create artwork for illusions of every unit is Wesnoth. And any scenario creator who wants to create new units and have your unit in their campaign would have to create attack animations as well. That would be waaaay too much artwork for one unit. Even thought your image of the illusionary troll is really cool, I believe this violates the KISS principle.
That's why I suggest that the illusionist needs to limit his illusionary attacks somehow. One option would be to create only a few kinds of illusionary creature, although this would be better suited to a conjurur, whould could summon, say 3 types of units X times per level.
Or what if the illusionist could create a clone of an enemy unit, it would look the same as the enemy unit, but would be, say, only half as effective in combat. To avoid the problems with special abilities like ensnare (it's hard to make ensnare half as effective) perhaps it wouldn't gain any special abilties, until level 3. Anyway, my point is that this clone would look exactly like the original unit, and would allow the illusionist's side to essentially copy one enemy unit to use for themselves. The illusionist can do this only once per level, however if the clone dies, then the illusionist can create another clone (though perhaps the illusionist should lose half his hp, due to the backlash). Becuase clones aren't real units, they don't gain experience and can't level up, but they also don't require any upkeep, and appropriate trade-off.
The illusionist wouldn't have to have a different attack animation for each enemy unit it clones, it could just have one "clone" attack animation. Then the new unit would appear in the nearest adjacent square.
One problem with creating illusions was that i wanted to make sure one illusionist couldn't create hundreds of illusionary creatures that could run all over the map. Your illusionist doesn't actually create seperate units, instead he uses illusions as a more powerful melee attack.
Obviously attacking unit X with it's illusionary double wouldn't be very effective is that illusionary double could only do 50% or 75% of the original's damage. Wesnoth uses a bit of a rock/paper/sicsors strategy, attack horsemen with archers, archers with fighters, undead with mages etc. So attackng a unit X with an attack with is 50% of X's original attack, means that unit X is dealing a lot more damage than it is recieving.
I have a related idea, what if the illusionist could create an illusion based on any adjacent unit, and use that illusionary creature to attack any other ajcent unit. If a level 3 troll and a necromancer are attacking the illusionist, he could select the troll, create an illusion from it and then use that to attack the necromancer. Theoretically, he couldn't move while creating this illusion, so he can only use it on adjacent targets, and it would disappear at the end of his round. That way you could use an illusion derived from one creature on another. You mentioned this would only be a melee attack, does that mean if I create an illusionary archer, i am forced to use it's melee attack, what if i create an illusionary dark adept, does it have no attack?
The critical problem with this plan is that if the illusionist can copy any unit, you would have to create artwork for illusions of every unit is Wesnoth. And any scenario creator who wants to create new units and have your unit in their campaign would have to create attack animations as well. That would be waaaay too much artwork for one unit. Even thought your image of the illusionary troll is really cool, I believe this violates the KISS principle.
That's why I suggest that the illusionist needs to limit his illusionary attacks somehow. One option would be to create only a few kinds of illusionary creature, although this would be better suited to a conjurur, whould could summon, say 3 types of units X times per level.
Or what if the illusionist could create a clone of an enemy unit, it would look the same as the enemy unit, but would be, say, only half as effective in combat. To avoid the problems with special abilities like ensnare (it's hard to make ensnare half as effective) perhaps it wouldn't gain any special abilties, until level 3. Anyway, my point is that this clone would look exactly like the original unit, and would allow the illusionist's side to essentially copy one enemy unit to use for themselves. The illusionist can do this only once per level, however if the clone dies, then the illusionist can create another clone (though perhaps the illusionist should lose half his hp, due to the backlash). Becuase clones aren't real units, they don't gain experience and can't level up, but they also don't require any upkeep, and appropriate trade-off.
The illusionist wouldn't have to have a different attack animation for each enemy unit it clones, it could just have one "clone" attack animation. Then the new unit would appear in the nearest adjacent square.
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Christophe33
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We can discuss that followwing my pot at
http://wesnoth.whitevine.net/forum/phpB ... .php?t=868
I also explain there why the illusion would actually be quite efficient. Basically the attack from the illusion would always have 70% chance to hit (magic attack) while the illusionist himself would have little chance to be hit since he's covered by an illusion. There might be different way to play with parameters to mimmick the defensive effect of the illusion.
So the illusionist would be qquite good in melee, far less in range and in big trouble against real mage who would have 70% to hit with range weapon and do more domage.
For the animation, I would not have to make a set for each enemies... Just use the picture with the translucent illusionist (and the little spark/stars) as a background on which the image of the enemy unit would be dynamically applied. This is the part I don't know if it can be coded since it implies a variable image instead of a fix one.
http://wesnoth.whitevine.net/forum/phpB ... .php?t=868
I also explain there why the illusion would actually be quite efficient. Basically the attack from the illusion would always have 70% chance to hit (magic attack) while the illusionist himself would have little chance to be hit since he's covered by an illusion. There might be different way to play with parameters to mimmick the defensive effect of the illusion.
So the illusionist would be qquite good in melee, far less in range and in big trouble against real mage who would have 70% to hit with range weapon and do more domage.
For the animation, I would not have to make a set for each enemies... Just use the picture with the translucent illusionist (and the little spark/stars) as a background on which the image of the enemy unit would be dynamically applied. This is the part I don't know if it can be coded since it implies a variable image instead of a fix one.
Never tell a dwarf that he shortchanged you!
If ever implemented:
* Illusions should not be able to do damage
* Illusions should not be able to capture villages
* Illusions should not be able to explore map (that is what scouts are for)
* Illusions should not affect fog of war (scouts again)
* Illusions disappear if they they are no longer in your FoW
* Illusions should have only 1 hitpoint
* Illusions should have ZoC
So they can be used to create zones of control and create illusions of bigger force than what you actually have. But they can only move on area that you have mapped/see. You can use them to hold villages (at least single enemy can not capture village from you).
How to make casting illusions simple? Healing doesn't require any extra selection (e.g. which units will be healed)... maybe illusionist in village can cast illusions a bit like leader can recruit/recall while in keep.
- Miyo
* Illusions should not be able to do damage
* Illusions should not be able to capture villages
* Illusions should not be able to explore map (that is what scouts are for)
* Illusions should not affect fog of war (scouts again)
* Illusions disappear if they they are no longer in your FoW
* Illusions should have only 1 hitpoint
* Illusions should have ZoC
So they can be used to create zones of control and create illusions of bigger force than what you actually have. But they can only move on area that you have mapped/see. You can use them to hold villages (at least single enemy can not capture village from you).
How to make casting illusions simple? Healing doesn't require any extra selection (e.g. which units will be healed)... maybe illusionist in village can cast illusions a bit like leader can recruit/recall while in keep.
- Miyo
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Eponymous-Archon
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Illusions could simply be existing images, perhaps with a nice alpha'd twinkling over them (I like C33's images above).
We could try giving illusions behave the following way in principle, then work out the implications (some of which I have suggested below - these more or less match miyo's list):
Unresolved here are at least two things:
Oh, and the Illusionist of course has to have a basic real attack weapon (melee?).
We could try giving illusions behave the following way in principle, then work out the implications (some of which I have suggested below - these more or less match miyo's list):
- They appear real to the enemy (AI only?), and so get the usual at-a-distance reactions.
- OTOH, they are not real, and so can't actually do very much.
- ZoC
- Attackable
- etc
- They have 1 hit point (a proxy for 0)
- They can't move
- They can't attack
- They always die when attacked (i.e., 100% chance to hit...though it probably shouldn't look that way to the AI, which I assume takes such things into account...hmmm, that might be tough to do, huh?)
Unresolved here are at least two things:
- Which units could be recalled? Making it anyone adjacent means that an attack would have to be on-going or imminent, whereas allowing it to be non-adjacent units (which could also include units not anywhere on the map), would allow for the Illusionist to be more valuable as a decoy unit, acting "alone".
- What is the life-time of illusions: while in ZoC of Illusionist, 1 turn, until attacked?
Oh, and the Illusionist of course has to have a basic real attack weapon (melee?).
The Eponymous Archon
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Christophe33
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I had proposed a simliar version before but with the illusionist using the keeep to "recruit" his illusion, but it would be fine from a village too.miyo wrote:If ever implemented:
* Illusions should not be able to do damage
* Illusions should not be able to capture villages
* Illusions should not be able to explore map (that is what scouts are for)
* Illusions should not affect fog of war (scouts again)
* Illusions disappear if they they are no longer in your FoW
* Illusions should have only 1 hitpoint
* Illusions should have ZoC
So they can be used to create zones of control and create illusions of bigger force than what you actually have. But they can only move on area that you have mapped/see. You can use them to hold villages (at least single enemy can not capture village from you).
How to make casting illusions simple? Healing doesn't require any extra selection (e.g. which units will be healed)... maybe illusionist in village can cast illusions a bit like leader can recruit/recall while in keep.
- Miyo
The main problem I see is to make the illusion credible...they should have fake name, HP ... displayed like a real unit. Lvl1 illusionist could call only lvl1 illusion units, then a lvl2 could call a lvl2... There should be a way to limit the number of illusion called, either with a cost or a total level of illusion. Otherwise you could end up with 20 illusion of elf champions...the computer AI would not like it.
Another problem I se is with "* Illusions disappear if they they are no longer in your FoW* Moving a unit by a single hex might result in the lost of the illusion... and then you can't undo the move, so it can become a major drawback. It would be better if the illusion was turned inactive (lost movement and can't "see") till it is again in the FoW of a unit.
If the illusion can't do domage then illusionist should then be given some decent magic attack, maybe blinding/confusing enemy with illusion.
Another fun power could be that the illusionist would cover himself with an illusion to appear like a friendly unit when he is not figthing (a bit like the present ambush power).
The version I presented dealing real domage from the "illusion" could be a conjurer type of magician that would call a "unit" or a weapon to fight each turn.
Never tell a dwarf that he shortchanged you!
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aSosoMan
Creating illusions should be something difficult, I think that if a illusionist stands at a village can create an illusion of himself.
1. Max of 1 illusion/turn for each illusionist.
2. No hp (1hp)
3. No capturing villages, no exploring, losing movement if becomes FoW.
4. ZoC (It will have lots of uses for blocking your wounded units for being reached by enemies)
5. The % to hit equal that the illusionist himself. (The illusion only becomes dispelled when its really damaged, not when your arrows fly around it)
6. 1st level illusionis = 1st level illusionist illusion, 2nd = 2nd lvl illusion, and so on...
7. The illusionist could have a slow attack perhaps. It could be the tricks and spells created to confuse the enemy.
8. Only ranged attack seems nice for me. After all, it always avoided close combat creating illusions.
9. Will propose some caracteristics:
Lvl 1: Prestidigitator
-> Hp: 24 Movement: 6
-> Magical Ranged: 4-3 (Magical Illusion Hammer)
-> Magical Ranged: 2-1 Slow (Magical Distraction)
-> Standard Terrain Defensife %
Lvl 2: Illusionist
-> Hp: 36 Movement: 6
-> Magical Ranged: 5-4
-> Magical Ranged: 3-2 Slow
-> +5% Terrain Defensife %
Lvl 3: Master Illusionist
-> Hp: 48 Movement: 6
-> Magical Ranged: 8-4
-> Magical Ranged: 5-2 Slow
-> +10% Terrain Defensife %
It's a reduced mage with Slow abilities and a better chance of not being hit. Seems powerful enough, if you go to 3 villages you will have 3 units to avoid attacks. (that could be a lot combined with the slow and the a bit upper chance to hit).
(Think about a troll, with only 2 attacks being at 40% that means that means a 36% of the illusion surviving each turn. Against magical attacks (70%) the illusion won't survive for long
which makes sense.
aSosoMan
1. Max of 1 illusion/turn for each illusionist.
2. No hp (1hp)
3. No capturing villages, no exploring, losing movement if becomes FoW.
4. ZoC (It will have lots of uses for blocking your wounded units for being reached by enemies)
5. The % to hit equal that the illusionist himself. (The illusion only becomes dispelled when its really damaged, not when your arrows fly around it)
6. 1st level illusionis = 1st level illusionist illusion, 2nd = 2nd lvl illusion, and so on...
7. The illusionist could have a slow attack perhaps. It could be the tricks and spells created to confuse the enemy.
8. Only ranged attack seems nice for me. After all, it always avoided close combat creating illusions.
9. Will propose some caracteristics:
Lvl 1: Prestidigitator
-> Hp: 24 Movement: 6
-> Magical Ranged: 4-3 (Magical Illusion Hammer)
-> Magical Ranged: 2-1 Slow (Magical Distraction)
-> Standard Terrain Defensife %
Lvl 2: Illusionist
-> Hp: 36 Movement: 6
-> Magical Ranged: 5-4
-> Magical Ranged: 3-2 Slow
-> +5% Terrain Defensife %
Lvl 3: Master Illusionist
-> Hp: 48 Movement: 6
-> Magical Ranged: 8-4
-> Magical Ranged: 5-2 Slow
-> +10% Terrain Defensife %
It's a reduced mage with Slow abilities and a better chance of not being hit. Seems powerful enough, if you go to 3 villages you will have 3 units to avoid attacks. (that could be a lot combined with the slow and the a bit upper chance to hit).
(Think about a troll, with only 2 attacks being at 40% that means that means a 36% of the illusion surviving each turn. Against magical attacks (70%) the illusion won't survive for long
which makes sense.aSosoMan
most units keep their terrain defence when they advance. it is part of the resistance to types of attacks and the movement on terrain. are you going to make two more movement type?
also, almost are increments are in 10%, not 5%.
also, almost are increments are in 10%, not 5%.
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
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Christophe33
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The main problem with illusionary units is how to limit the number to something reasonnable. The best option is effectively to have an illusion "upkeep" allowing something like 2 illusions per level of illusionist (the number could be modified if it turns too powerfull). So if you have a lvl3 and a lvl 1 you could get up to 8 illusion at the same time. If the lvl 1 illusionist got killed, then the maximun drop to 6...the extra illusion would not disappear (like being in negative gold) but it will not be possible to create new one till 3 got dispelled. To create the illusion, I see two main ways: a recruit type from village or keep (or anywhere?) witch would allows diversity or a more restrictive version: the illusion appears in the hex previsouly occupied by the illusionist when the illusionist move away. Then it would probably be a fixed type of illusion like an elf fighter.
If this is possible to set up then the next question is how the illusion moves?
Like the unit it mimmicks or as a flying unit with a fixed number of move (like 4 hex). Since it is an illusion it is not really limited in its move like the real unit. It might allows players/AI to spot some incoherence in the mvt (the illusion is not perfect) and it would avoid making illusion of fast unit too much superior.
If this is possible to set up then the next question is how the illusion moves?
Like the unit it mimmicks or as a flying unit with a fixed number of move (like 4 hex). Since it is an illusion it is not really limited in its move like the real unit. It might allows players/AI to spot some incoherence in the mvt (the illusion is not perfect) and it would avoid making illusion of fast unit too much superior.
Never tell a dwarf that he shortchanged you!