Wimpy paladin
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Casual User
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Wimpy paladin
Good morning!
I've thought about it for awhile, and I've come to think the paladin is rather badly designed. It's not so much that it's a bad unit, it's just that the grand knight is so good that it eliminates real choice...
I think the big problem is that his sword attack is weird. He deals 8-5, but holy, so in effect deals 6-5 to most units (less than the knight) and in broad daylight deals only its 8-5, as much as the knight's 10-4, and contrast it to the grand knight's 15-4 in similar conditions... Its HP increase is too small, and 'heals', quite frankly, is too weak to be effective.
Essentially, the paladin is useful only against undead. You may argue that so is the white mage, but it's false. The white mage cures (which is more useful), and the damage differences between white mage and red mage is much smaller than between paladin and grand knight. The grand knight is so unbelievaly better than the paladin, except against undead, all a tradeoff for heals which is practically nothing (I know a lot of people think healing is made precious by being remote, but it's false, it just makes it less useful).
Basically, it seems to me like the choice between the two has no strategy in it beyond 'I'm facing undead, paladin' (20% of times) or 'I'm not facing undead, grand knight' (80% of times). It can be argued that it's still a tactical choice, but usually, branches in Wesnoth include more forethought and strategy.
Enough [censored], a few proposals:
1. Paladin gets a 8-5 bladed sword attack and a 6-5 holy sword attack.
2. Paladin gets cures.
3. Paladin gets illuminates as well as heals (my personal favorite).
4. Paladin gets leadership but not heals.
5. Insert idea here.
Thanks for reading, and sorry for the rant.
I've thought about it for awhile, and I've come to think the paladin is rather badly designed. It's not so much that it's a bad unit, it's just that the grand knight is so good that it eliminates real choice...
I think the big problem is that his sword attack is weird. He deals 8-5, but holy, so in effect deals 6-5 to most units (less than the knight) and in broad daylight deals only its 8-5, as much as the knight's 10-4, and contrast it to the grand knight's 15-4 in similar conditions... Its HP increase is too small, and 'heals', quite frankly, is too weak to be effective.
Essentially, the paladin is useful only against undead. You may argue that so is the white mage, but it's false. The white mage cures (which is more useful), and the damage differences between white mage and red mage is much smaller than between paladin and grand knight. The grand knight is so unbelievaly better than the paladin, except against undead, all a tradeoff for heals which is practically nothing (I know a lot of people think healing is made precious by being remote, but it's false, it just makes it less useful).
Basically, it seems to me like the choice between the two has no strategy in it beyond 'I'm facing undead, paladin' (20% of times) or 'I'm not facing undead, grand knight' (80% of times). It can be argued that it's still a tactical choice, but usually, branches in Wesnoth include more forethought and strategy.
Enough [censored], a few proposals:
1. Paladin gets a 8-5 bladed sword attack and a 6-5 holy sword attack.
2. Paladin gets cures.
3. Paladin gets illuminates as well as heals (my personal favorite).
4. Paladin gets leadership but not heals.
5. Insert idea here.
Thanks for reading, and sorry for the rant.
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Elvish_Pillager
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The sword: Too many attacks, (NOT meaning swings) especially since they're all in the same range.
Cures: I don't like units going straight to Cures. Anyway, Paladins are supposed to be fighters, in general... If they had high HP and cures, they would fit the role quite admirably, but the Grand Knight takes over the high-HP role.
Leadership: Paladins have never been horsemen who ride across the back rank boosting the morale of the warriors. It would be nice, but it would not fit.
Illuminates: COOL! That would let them engage the enemy better provided the enemy is Chaotic, it would benefit the Paladin's attack in general, and since the Paladin is not the "standard upgrade", it would not cause RIPLIB issues. (I really want the Grand Knight to have 8 moves!
) Heals is not all that useful, but when using Illuminates as a weakening and strengthening tool in conjunction, it has the added benefit of giving nearby units a little healing bonus. Of course, Heals is also not necessary.
Cures: I don't like units going straight to Cures. Anyway, Paladins are supposed to be fighters, in general... If they had high HP and cures, they would fit the role quite admirably, but the Grand Knight takes over the high-HP role.
Leadership: Paladins have never been horsemen who ride across the back rank boosting the morale of the warriors. It would be nice, but it would not fit.
Illuminates: COOL! That would let them engage the enemy better provided the enemy is Chaotic, it would benefit the Paladin's attack in general, and since the Paladin is not the "standard upgrade", it would not cause RIPLIB issues. (I really want the Grand Knight to have 8 moves!
) Heals is not all that useful, but when using Illuminates as a weakening and strengthening tool in conjunction, it has the added benefit of giving nearby units a little healing bonus. Of course, Heals is also not necessary.It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Adding the blade attack is all that's needed. 3 attacks in the same range being too many is purely an arbitrary and baseless judgement. If the guy has that many, then that's what he has. Besides, like the Halbardier, 2 are only logically distinct.
I'm lukewarm on the rest of the ideas, especially cures.
Leadership could be ok, but illuminates would be very good. It would be like nighttime leadership, chaotic allies nonwithstanding.
I'm lukewarm on the rest of the ideas, especially cures.
Leadership could be ok, but illuminates would be very good. It would be like nighttime leadership, chaotic allies nonwithstanding.
Hope springs eternal.
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Elvish_Pillager
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sort of like...scott wrote:Leadership could be ok, but illuminates would be very good. It would be like nighttime leadership, chaotic allies nonwithstanding.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
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im the one you think of
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i think the idea of the paladin is that s/he specialises in fighting the undead. which would change completely if you made any of these changes. its the same for the white mage accept that s/he's useful because s/he can cure. the paladin only being able to heal is not a disadvantage, in the way that, the rebels are the only army to have cure and heal anyway (i think) also the rebels have a lot of advantages already, for example they are the only faction to have dextrous and they are the only faction which has units which can slow (excluding pillagers and desert hunters) and therefore shouldnt have ultra powerful units like the paladin you are suggesting. ok so ultra powerful is an exaggeration, oh well
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(S)elfish weirdo
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The (S)elfish ones don't have any horsemen except in campaigns
besides, I don't think that the treehugging freaks are overpowered: they all have little hitpoints and need much xp and since the overnerf of the merman hunter, they are weak at sea.
agreed, the only time you want a paladin over a grand knight is when fighting undead, either giving them both 8-5 blade and 8-5 holy or illumination should make them more balanced.
besides, I don't think that the treehugging freaks are overpowered: they all have little hitpoints and need much xp and since the overnerf of the merman hunter, they are weak at sea.
agreed, the only time you want a paladin over a grand knight is when fighting undead, either giving them both 8-5 blade and 8-5 holy or illumination should make them more balanced.
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Elvish_Pillager
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Illuminates would not decrease its undead-killing effectiveness, in fact Illuminates would be quite polarized towards Undead-killing. I think Illuminates fits the paladin much more than it does the Mage of Light...im the one you think of wrote:i think the idea of the paladin is that s/he specialises in fighting the undead. which would change completely if you made any of these changes.
P.S.: Why are we talking about Rebels?
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
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Elvish_Pillager
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Elvish_Pillager
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It is going to be. Grr. The question is, before or after 1.0?breversa wrote:Cool.
But... Is the paladin really gonna be re-balanced or not ?
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
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wayfarer
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Another problem with illuminate the halo which is used works good with white mages because they are white (The awareness of the century). But units with an other color than white got problems the halo must be changed first else it looks ugly.
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Casual User
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Good morning.
Illuminates is my favorite too.
Giving the paladin both a bladed attack and a holy attack would be a lot like the hallberdier. It wouldn't be an actual choice, you would either use the holy against undead or the bladed anywhere else. Neither has another bonus to it.
Yes, the paladin is supposed to be specialized, but right now, it's just useless against anything except undead, as I pointed out before. Giving him illuminates would help against undead too, but also give him a small general bonus against all chaotics, which would fit him nicely. I imagine a 'knight of virtue' to be enraged at undead, but also good against orcs, trolls, etc...
About the white mage is also used against undead, etc... The red mage deals 8-4(32) damage against most and 10-4(40) against undead. The white mage deals 6-4(24, 25% less) against most and 16-4(56, 40% more) against undead (time of day not included). The paladin and grand knight can use his charge, but often, you just want him to attack. The paladin's sword deals 6-5(30) against most and 16-5(80) against undead while the grand knight's sword deals 12-4(48, 60% more) against most and 7-5(35, 56% less) against undead. The White mage also has cures while the paladin only has heals. I just find that the red mage/white mage is a complex choice where both alternatives can be useful. The paladin/grand knight choice is too polarized. Giving him illuminates would add another strategic layer to the decision.
Illuminates is my favorite too.
Giving the paladin both a bladed attack and a holy attack would be a lot like the hallberdier. It wouldn't be an actual choice, you would either use the holy against undead or the bladed anywhere else. Neither has another bonus to it.
Yes, the paladin is supposed to be specialized, but right now, it's just useless against anything except undead, as I pointed out before. Giving him illuminates would help against undead too, but also give him a small general bonus against all chaotics, which would fit him nicely. I imagine a 'knight of virtue' to be enraged at undead, but also good against orcs, trolls, etc...
About the white mage is also used against undead, etc... The red mage deals 8-4(32) damage against most and 10-4(40) against undead. The white mage deals 6-4(24, 25% less) against most and 16-4(56, 40% more) against undead (time of day not included). The paladin and grand knight can use his charge, but often, you just want him to attack. The paladin's sword deals 6-5(30) against most and 16-5(80) against undead while the grand knight's sword deals 12-4(48, 60% more) against most and 7-5(35, 56% less) against undead. The White mage also has cures while the paladin only has heals. I just find that the red mage/white mage is a complex choice where both alternatives can be useful. The paladin/grand knight choice is too polarized. Giving him illuminates would add another strategic layer to the decision.