New title: Discussing some proposed 1.20 high-level mage stat changes

[Dalas120]

The 1.18 Necromancer is in an odd spot. Its damage is very similar to the Lich, but inferior to both the Enchantress and Arch Mage (and MoL, if we factor in Illuminates). But unlike every other mage, the Necromancer boasts a whopping 76 hp and 10% impact resistance.

These stats (more hp than a Royal Guard!?) point the Necromancer towards a front-line tank/shock trooper role. I get that this makes sense for balance - undead don't have good impact-resistant tanks - but I also feel this runs contrary to the unit fantasy. A necromancy-themed mage should stand behind waves of undead minions while bolstering them with powerful magic and debilitating their enemies with spells, not tanking damage from the frontline.

To better fulfill this fantasy, I suggest nerfing the Necromancer's (and Dark Sorcerer's?) hitpoints and/or damage, and giving them either Leadership or a new undead-bolstering ability. This also helps further differentiate the Necromancer and Lich, making the choice of advancement even more significant.

Opinions?

[Lord-Knightmare]

To better fulfill this fantasy, I suggest nerfing the Necromancer's (and Dark Sorcerer's?) hitpoints and/or damage, and giving them either Leadership or a new undead-bolstering ability. This also helps further differentiate the Necromancer and Lich, making the choice of advancement even more significant.

Maybe you can try necromantic healing (undead-only healing) (Skyrim reference), or 'malice' (adjacent undead receive 10-15% damage boost irrespective of level), or maybe a defensive buffer like 'tether essence' (grant adjacent undead +20% resistance vs arcane on defense/offense).

Another is related to just WC/Soulless leadership. Necromancer has plague melee, so it would make sense if they got a leadership specifically for zombies.

[Spannerbag]

I agree; imho necros have way too many hp to suit the (as I see it) nature of the unit (like Mages they are not warriors nor do I see them as active, sporty outdoor types).
In an ideal world I'd've thought that the Adept line would have hp comparable to the corresponding Mage line unit?

Would something as simple as reducing hp and giving shadow wave the plague special be enough to balance?
And/or just as Mages of Light have illumination, why not give Necromancers the inverse; darkness?
Or increase average ranged damage slightly (+1 strikes but lower damage maybe)?

Just my random ramblings...

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

[dwarftough]

I would probably recommend not leadership but another kind of support ability. Death Knights have leadership. I think Necromancers aren't really units to lead others into battle. Hard to say what replacement we could add. Darkens is very strong, heal undead maybe?

[Dalas120]

Darkens is very strong

why not give Necromancers the inverse; darkness?

I expected Darkens to be a popular suggestion, but in all honesty it's not my favorite. I think it feels a little too similar to Illuminates, and thematically it's a little weird to *remove* light (compared to *creating* light). At least that's my opinion.

Another is related to just WC/Soulless leadership. Necromancer has plague melee, so it would make sense if they got a leadership specifically for zombies.

This could be fun. Some kind of uber-buff for just WC/Soulless; berserk/charge, extra strikes, more movement, etc? Although adding a new ability would also be complicated, possibly unnecessarily so. What do you all think about this?

Would something as simple as reducing hp and giving shadow wave the plague special be enough to balance?

I like this nice and simple idea. No custom specials, no unusual mechanics, just adding an already-existing (and very thematic) special to their ranged attacks. Seems like it would fit nicely in mainline.


One possible variation on this - a "reanimation" special that plagues any adjacent unit who dies (regardless of their initial side, or which unit kills them). Edge case: If multiple sides have adjacent necromancers, whichever side got the kill also gets the plague, or a random side if neither got the kill.

I feel like this would encourage interesting positioning and unit movement, and I like the theme of a necromancer indiscriminately raising the corpses of both their allies and enemies. Although again, I admit that adding a new ability might be unnecessary complexity.

[sine_nomine]

Yeah it's odd that necromancers are tanks.
Necromancers already have plague as their defining feature. So if necromancers need a buff to stay viable after losing HP & impact resistance, it should be related to plague. A ranged plague attack sounds good.

I don't like healing/darkening. I don't mind loyalists revolving around healing+illuminate+leadership but I expect each faction to play differently. And leadership doesn't fit because death knights already exist.

[Spannerbag]

Another is related to just WC/Soulless leadership. Necromancer has plague melee, so it would make sense if they got a leadership specifically for zombies.

This could be fun. Some kind of uber-buff for just WC/Soulless; berserk/charge, extra strikes, more movement, etc? Although adding a new ability would also be complicated, possibly unnecessarily so. What do you all think about this?

I think berserk could be unbalancing, I played a UMC campaign some time ago where due to AI recruitment (both ally and enemy) resulted in sufficient WC on map to become almost self-sustaining (my AI ally recruited a lot of zero levels; Peasants and Woodsmen). Granted berserk would presumably be limited to those units adjacent to a Necro on the same side (or allied?) but even so I have my doubts, especially if the Necro has moves remaining so can move adjacent to the newly spawned unit and bestow berserk on that also...
Maybe limited berserk, say double attacks, i.e. [berserk] with value=2?
However these buffs are, to my mind anyway, functionally similar to leadership in that they enhance the unit's combat effectiveness.
(Not saying they wouldn't be fun, however! )

Would something as simple as reducing hp and giving shadow wave the plague special be enough to balance?

I like this nice and simple idea. No custom specials, no unusual mechanics, just adding an already-existing (and very thematic) special to their ranged attacks. Seems like it would fit nicely in mainline.


One possible variation on this - a "reanimation" special that plagues any adjacent unit who dies (regardless of their initial side, or which unit kills them). Edge case: If multiple sides have adjacent necromancers, whichever side got the kill also gets the plague, or a random side if neither got the kill.

I feel like this would encourage interesting positioning and unit movement, and I like the theme of a necromancer indiscriminately raising the corpses of both their allies and enemies. Although again, I admit that adding a new ability might be unnecessary complexity.

How about Sorcerers raising WC and Necros Soulless?
I suppose for consistency it would also be necessary for the Necro's plague attack to create Soulless rather than WCs?
In fact that could be a unique feature of Necros; only they can "directly" raise Soulless?

Heh, not sure these further ramblings have clarified anything...

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

[gnombat]

Note that plague tends to be very difficult to balance, because it has an inherently unstable "positive feedback" effect where plague creates walking corpses, and walking corpses create more walking corpses, etc. I wouldn't recommend giving the necromancer any more plague attacks/abilities than it already has.

[Dalas120]

I agree that plague can be very destabilizing, but I'm not sure it's an issue in this case. When used by the AI against the player, I don't expect the AI to get enough kills to make it meaningful. When used by the player against the AI, snowbally moments can make for very fun gameplay - and plague can't snowball an entire campaign because WC are useless to recall. The proposed "renaimation" special would also apply to the necromancer's own living units, which would be stabilizing rather than destabilizing.

But for the sake of exploring our options: if we want to avoid offensive aura abilities because they overlap with leadership, and we also want to avoid plague or triggers-on-death abilities because they're destabilizing, I think that leaves us with 2 possibilities (though I'm still not completely ruling out plague).

1) debuff attacks. Slow, daze, poison, stun, or something new.

2) defensive aura abilities. None of these exist in mainline, so we'd need something new. Perhaps we boost the arcane/fire/impact resist of adjacent undead, or maybe something like "the first time each turn an adjacent ally dies, they don't."

[name]

Would something as simple as reducing hp and giving shadow wave the plague special be enough to balance?

I like this nice and simple idea. No custom specials, no unusual mechanics, just adding an already-existing (and very thematic) special to their ranged attacks. Seems like it would fit nicely in mainline.

One possible variation on this - a "reanimation" special that plagues any adjacent unit who dies (regardless of their initial side, or which unit kills them). Edge case: If multiple sides have adjacent necromancers, whichever side got the kill also gets the plague, or a random side if neither got the kill.

These are really nice ideas. Perfectly thematic for the Necromancer. I imagine the extra meat-shields would compensate well for a frailer spell caster.

defensive aura abilities

Since drains is like the undead equivalent of regenerates you could have a similar undead equivalent of heals, where every friendly unit adjacent to the Necromancer gets hit points worth 10% of the damage inflicted by its shadow wave attack whenever it hits a living victim (while the Necromancer itself gets none).

[holypaladin]

The 1.18 Necromancer is in an odd spot. Its damage is very similar to the Lich, but inferior to both the Enchantress and Arch Mage (and MoL, if we factor in Illuminates). But unlike every other mage, the Necromancer boasts a whopping 76 hp and 10% impact resistance.

These stats (more hp than a Royal Guard!?) point the Necromancer towards a front-line tank/shock trooper role. I get that this makes sense for balance - undead don't have good impact-resistant tanks - but I also feel this runs contrary to the unit fantasy. A necromancy-themed mage should stand behind waves of undead minions while bolstering them with powerful magic and debilitating their enemies with spells, not tanking damage from the frontline.

To better fulfill this fantasy, I suggest nerfing the Necromancer's (and Dark Sorcerer's?) hitpoints and/or damage, and giving them either Leadership or a new undead-bolstering ability. This also helps further differentiate the Necromancer and Lich, making the choice of advancement even more significant.

Opinions?

I mostly agree but leadership for necrromancer may not be the best choice. Instead I would propose darkens (chaotic units fight better near him) or a little stronger range attack.

[Spannerbag]

Note that plague tends to be very difficult to balance, because it has an inherently unstable "positive feedback" effect where plague creates walking corpses, and walking corpses create more walking corpses, etc. I wouldn't recommend giving the necromancer any more plague attacks/abilities than it already has.

Just rambling here... alternatively what if Shadow Wave (SW) - if it kills a plagueable enemy unit - converts them to ghouls?
Mind you, poison is also potentially unbalancing and some conversions such as bats or woses -> ghouls would be... odd.
Hmmm... maybe not.

Alternatively SW could force the spirit from the deceased (plagueable) foe and create a ghost on the Necro's side (or is this too much of a buff)?

Tho' I agree plague can be unbalancing, I tend to side with Dalas because there will, in general, not be that many necros on the map and the AI (I think) won't consider plague so will just go for higher damage and select Chill Wave rather than SW in most cases?
Also, SW has to actually kill the enemy and so not every SW attack will result in a WC/Soulless being spawned.

Another limit to this plague effect, if needed, would be allow the necro to create WC/Soulless only on SW offense, tho' I don't think that feels right tbh.

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

[Dalas120]

In addition to gnombat, dwarftough also had some concerns about plague in the discord - worrying that it might be too strong in MP. Not completely ruling out plague on Shadow Wave (which I still like, though we'd probably need to keep it to just basic WC), but I've been considering alternatives. Some ideas that I feel wouldn't be too exotic:

1) Take a page out of EI's book: nerf the Necro's damage (in addition to it's HP), but give it a "conduit" ability that boosts the Necro's damage for each adjacent undead creature. A Necro on its own would deal less damage than the Arch mage, but a Necro surrounded by undead (whether friend or foe) would deal more.

2) Give the Necro Darkens. I don't really like Darkens for several reasons, but it admittedly checks most of the boxes for a non-plague Necro supportive ability.

[Ravana]

Looks like topic has moved from balance to theme.

[Dalas120]

The topic has always been about the necromancer's stats not fitting its theme. I'd typically consider any discussion about changing a unit's stats a 'balance' discussion - should I label this topic differently?