Why this game will never have players

[WarolKojtyla]

Yesterday I thought I will play some Wesnoth... I see some game, map slightly bigger than dune festival, 3/4 players. I join, we start the game...
16 minutes in, and only then first combat happened... About 25 minutes in, still not much happened, and one person had some important IRL stuff and left, 2 other players did the same... Game hasn't even really started, and around 30 minutes waited (plus wait time in lobby for those who joined before me)...

This game is extremely slow paced, there is little action per playtime, so it is rather boring, and preferably you should have some other task to do while playing...

You won't get enough of new players like that, and the old players are eventually gonna get bored with it/not have time to play anymore/die of old age.

[Lord-Knightmare]

You should have joined a game with a timer. Without timers, people take eons to play. I know some who took an hour to make a single turn.
If you want faster plays, I suggest a timer and joining maps with 2-3 players.

There are some that take hours to play: these are MP campaign or dungeon runs. Requires a dedicated group or a willing random.

There are some listed targets for improving the MP aspect of this game, but I am not sure when or if they will ever be met.

[WarolKojtyla]

It wasn't my first match, I am acquainted with this game. Yes, this was an extreme situation, but I don't think they took THAT long to make their moves, it's just that it was a biggish map, and that wesnoth is really slow by default. I stand by everything I said. In other games I can play for 2 hours, and have whole adventures in that time. In wesnoth in 2 hours I can play one game, which wasn't even finished and I am not exactly satisfied with.

[demario]

I see some game, map slightly bigger than dune festival, 3/4 players. I join, we start the game... 16 minutes in, and only then first combat happened... About 25 minutes in, still not much happened, and one person had some important IRL stuff and left, 2 other players did the same... Game hasn't even really started, and around 30 minutes waited

Hi, I was in your game yesterday. Some comments: the map was a user-made map. If you look for well established gameplay, just avoid the user-made maps.
The game ended at turn 5, so if you say it took 25 minutes, that means (4 players) 16+ side turns in that time, that is not slow at all (some chatting happened around the map and the setting no ally-mirror). The 2v2 games are generally slower when the team need to talk to reach a common strategy. The guy that left (my team mate) was the guy who made the map. Seeing that the author of the map left (as he was my team mate, I got control for his side), I thought there were no benefit in continuing the game and I ended the game. I couldn't play 2 sides on a map that I already made clear was not meeting the basic rules of good map design (eg villages next to mountains) especially as it was knalgans+northerners vs knalgans+northerners. I could have stated my reasons explicitly though, sorry for that.

You should give MP playing another try as the circumstances were quite unusual. Maybe you should focus on 1v1 games. as 2v2 are known to be difficult to arrange and possibly full of disappointments when the team mates do not work well together. Of course wesnoth MP is in crisis, so your general comment is not incorrect but yesterday's game should not be a good reason to give up on wesnoth.

[WarolKojtyla]

so if you say it took 25 minutes, that means (4 players) 16+ side turns in that time, that is not slow at all

To wesnoth players 25 minutes for just barely getting the game started is not slow at all. This proves my point. I don't care that compares well to the average, if my problem is that the average pace of the game is too slow itself!

Maybe you should focus on 1v1 games

Dune festivals are still extremely slow
And so is every other 1v1 mode I have played

Now, 1v1League is insanely fast by wesnoth standards, but overall I still think you don't get too much gameplay in this time...
HOWEVER 1v1League is completely unbalanced...

Of course wesnoth MP is in crisis, so your general comment is not incorrect but yesterday's game should not be a good reason to give up on wesnoth.

It's not the reason, it's just the perfect example.

[WarolKojtyla]

Btw I think the game being so slow to finish 1 turn forces the devs to make it faster as in - require less turns to finish. Which possibly makes the game shallower than it could otherwise be, which means skill matters less, that players have less opportunities to make and execute strategies, or don't even have patience for much strategy at this pace!

[demario]

so if you say it took 25 minutes, that means (4 players) 16+ side turns in that time, that is not slow at all

To wesnoth players 25 minutes for just barely getting the game started is not slow at all. This proves my point.

I don't try to disprove your point. I am just trying to highlight that if that time frame is too slow for you, you should target other types of scenarios.

Dune festivals are still extremely slow
And so is every other 1v1 mode I have played

The experience (from years ago, but has mankind changed at all?) is that if you rush the people to play faster, they will stand less gracefully any situation of bad luck. In case of bad roll of dice, people needs to get composure back, come with a new plan and move on. It takes time.

Btw I think the game being so slow to finish 1 turn forces the devs to make it faster as in - require less turns to finish. Which possibly makes the game shallower than it could otherwise be, which means skill matters less, that players have less opportunities to make and execute strategies, or don't even have patience for much strategy at this pace!

Chess has made a good job at renewing its fan base with blitz chess. But after some time, the new fans find the game interesting enough that they also enjoy slower games. Of course the difference is that chess the full information is on the board and the only limit is the speed to process it.

In wesnoth, the random part in the combat makes it harder to target a speed up. Estimating the risks inherent to a strategy depending on luck is a slow process. Is there anyone complaining that poker is too slow?

Of course the anonymous access to wesnoth MP, doesn't push people to show their best behavior or to show care for their anonymous opponent's enjoyment.
There was a time where people were active long enough to get acquainted to each other and try to make it fun for the partner/opponent too. Now, the target of the development team is to meet the needs of valve-powered newcomers at the expenses of the people who have shown continuous support for the game.
Hence the crisis.

[Hejnewar]

I join, we start the game... 16 minutes in, and only then first combat happened... About 25 minutes in, still not much happened

I will just take this as a base for what needs to be fixed. Honestly, I already tried with promising results, but since Im on wesbreak, I didnt continue. The map "Fallenstar Shrine" does have its problems like being harder to learn than usual maps and it also requires knowledge of how to manipulate ai as well (which is one of the things that I have a solution but not implemented one). It is also even bigger than Fallenstar Lake. Yet the combat starts quickly, the developement direction is more than just gold advantage, so in fact there is even more choices to make, but thanks to active utilisation of xp as a much bigger driving force as well as sheer openess of the map, it is very hard one to stall on.

So to sum it up, thanks to map design alone, you can fix at least issues like slow start of combat (overall), stalling between players from early to late game, you probably can still stall in very late game but that can happen on pretty much any map (actually I have an idea how to fix that as well and potentially make it a win condition but wont implement if for at least couple more weeks).

Unfortunatley map making is an acient and lost skill that I started to learn just recently so it takes time to make anything decent, but hopefully in the future the issues will be solvable just with maps. The only question remaining is if players will even want to play on them because well old habits die hard.

[Ben24626]

This game will never have players but only cause it's old and possibly due to lack of exposure? All the issues you present have solutions though (though some are personal preference to an extent):

Combat started 16mins in: so in a 4 player game then combat started really fast in fact. If combat started say first watch (a common ToD for first combat) then it was 1min turns on average (4 players x 4 rounds = 16 turns) until first combat (that's very fast). Even if combat was earlier, let's say dusk (idk how it could start earlier unless the map was very small) then that would still be fast. But more importantly than this it depends on how you experience the game which is more subjective. For me even turn 1 is interesting: what units shall I recruit? Which turn should I recruit them? How should I best take my villas? What should my overall strategy be? How will that synergise with my partner? What communication style will work best with this particular partner? Also in other player's turns one can think about their upcoming turn, chat with their teammate, go toilet/get a coffee, scroll your phone, do something else.

Players left: this is tricky. If you join a game with randoms this is a very real possibility. Over time you learn who the regulars are who can be relied upon. You can also play ladder games (people rarely leave these as they will lose elo). A short chat before joining can give an indication of the type of person you're playing with and how likely they are to just leave (a common convo I've had is "hello, do you know this scenario?" "join" this is usually a noob with possibly little reliability). Although you say someone had important IRL issues which can happen time to time to anyone and can never entirely be avoided.

"This game is extremely slow paced": frankly this is just personal opinion but I would agree (even as a slow player myself) that 4p games need a timer probably not more than 3mins, maybe less, in order to be enjoyable as your turn is only 1/4 of the game time.

"there is little action per playtime": this can be true depending on map/mu/players, with the wrong setup it can be the choice of a suicidal attack/an unending stareoff. You simply have to set the game up in a way to try and avoid this which is mostly possible.

Someone mentioned the autohosted games and yes the timer for those is rather odd imo: you start with 10 mins (more than you really need) and as soon as you take a longer turn (usually in the midst of a fight) you only get 5mins next turn. The minimaps games are definitely fastpaced though very affected by rng, any two players even vaguely similiar in skill and the game is basically a coinflip. You could host a 1v1 yourself with a better timer.

I would recommend trying out some games with a different map/timer/opponent(s). If you still find it slow then ig it's just not to your tastes but I don't think the game is inherently unenjoyable as many players used to play and some still do. Though with the dwindling player base there are less survivals/isars which were what hooked me on Wesnoth MP and are suited for beginners so from that pov it will be trickier to retain new players.

[Brittar]

The pacing is more suited for people who enjoy strategy over quick action, but I get why it’s frustrating when a game barely gets going before people drop.

If you’re looking for something faster-paced, you might enjoy games with more immediate action. Some players switch between turn-based and FPS games to balance things out: https://stealth-core.com/store/category/15-apex-hacks/ has some tools for optimizing performance in those.