Help me tune my map

[Cruz]

Short Version:
I made a map, i want help doing the final tuning.

A picture of the map:

The map itself

Longer version:

Hey, its summer, and i got a summerjob involving a ludicrous amount of sitting, waiting, infront of a computer.
So i made a Wesnoth map, and started trying to balance it.
Since the first draft the map has become some.. 6-7 hexes wider, 2 hexes heigher, and alot of mushrooms have been added, a sentral keep has become two samller central keeps.... aaaand well, its been alot of games and alot of changes.

Now as i have grown more and more used to my map, i have ofc become better and better at playing it. And i also start to think im getting blinded to its flaws.
So i turn to you out there, to ask for help in tuning it properly.

Comments on the map:

The general idea i had was more.. sneaking. More logistics, more tactics, not just "i hold the good terrain hopping".
So i made impenetrable mountains to allow units to sneak around in the fog of war. There are even mushrooms to inhibit flyers.

The middle has two keeps, which in conjugation with the 2 villages there too, often leads to a an early clash in the middle around turn 4.

A not unusal sight in middle:

well except from it beeing from a truly mirrored match

I like this, as this really allows you to separate the good players from the bad. The bad player will go all inn even if odds are he'll lose, while the good will fall back at and come back at a better time.

The reason the passes are so easily defendable is because they are meant to be easily defendable.
Reatreating players should be able to fall behind into their "valley" and heal up their units, so that the game is not over, just beacause you lost middle in the first clash.

The agressor then has to choose if he wishes to try brute force through one of the passes, or go around.

Beaten back from middle, but still kicking and two lvl 2 ulf's richer:

The left ulf had just saved that flank, but in the process i had left one of my passes underdefended and the red team broke through, in the end i lost

My Concerns regarding the map are the following:

-some faction unbalance that i have not seen
-that its is too hard to break out from your "village valley"
-that too many matches will end with a rapid coup d'grace in the middle
-i need helping find a good name for it, i want "cruz" in some way or another in it

Anyways, i would love some input

Edit: I made some changes to the map, its now version 1.05a

[Zigg]

Cruz Valley?

[Limabean]

It looks fun (i don't know much about balance so i'll leave it at that )

-that too many matches will end with a rapid coup d'grace in the middle

I don't think you should worry about that. I find short games to be just as fun as long ones. It's probably an advantage that the map can handle both.

[Turuk]

I don't think you should worry about that. I find short games to be just as fun as long ones. It's probably an advantage that the map can handle both.

I agree with your sentiment, but I think his worry is that this will then render all the work he's done on the sides, emphasizing sneaking around, as a pointless endeavor.

[Caphriel]

Try switching the castle's to the other side of the bridge on the main island, and adjust the terrain in the center accordingly? That'll put a little more space between them, and would make it easier to retreat safely. Although as I look at it right now, you've got some weird asymmetry going on there, so it'd be more like moving the left keep up-left two hexes, and the right keep down-right one hex. That might make the battles in the center less final.

However, as it stands right now, getting pushed out of the center is pretty catastrophic. You lose probably one village immediately, and you now have to defend a series of points in an arc around the center, whilst your opponent can strike at any of them from the same convenient location. Furthermore, while I applaud encouraging sneakiness, I imagine having one of your initial or early recruits skulking around the edge of the map will contribute to losing the battle in the center, and it will be a great many turns before it can begin to threaten your opponent's villages in the valley along the vertical edge of the map.

If a player gets pushed back into their village valley, the choke points that make it defensible will also contribute to keeping them trapped, while the income difference from the two villages outside it that they'll have lost stacks up against them.

I also suspect that in a longer match, the Undead will have an advantage, because they can post cheap, no-upkeep scouts in the edge areas to keep an eye out for an opponent trying something sneaky, or do something sneaky. Additionally, the asymmetric terrain makes the bottom player's villages easier to push into than the top player's, I think.

[Cruz]

So no obvious class unblanceses spotted so far?

Regarding undead, i sometimes wonder if they are alittle underpowered due to bats beeing lvl 0 and having no ZoC, and this map is heavy on ZoC use.

[mabeenot]

I like the map as it is but I don't think it will promote the "sneaking" that you're wanting.

The center will be a slaughtering ground in most games. The primary reason is that there is a direct line of open terrain connecting both starting locations which runs diagonally through the middle of the map. Players will move their slow, heavy hitters toward the enemy keep through the most direct path, especially units newly created in the second or third turn after most of "village valley" has been taken by scouts.

If you want more sneaking, try adding a mountain range between the player's nearest village and the elf village. If they can't go straight across, players will have to find alternate routes.

Also, I don't see any reason for a player to go to the top left and bottom right corners of the map. "Village valley" will get some visitors and I expect "sneaky" players will relocate to the extra keeps in the north and south. The two openings in the mountain pass closest to each starting position make good bottlenecks for fighting. The third opening (southern swamp and northern desert) will be easier to break through. There isn't an incentive for players to use the fourth opening in the far corners unless it's a last resort. You could draw players to those corner areas by giving them an incentive like a village relocated from the congested "village valley."

As to the name, I'm sure you know Cruz means "cross" in Spanish and Portuguese. I don't know if that would have any translation implications if you used it in the title. I think your best bet is to invent a word with "Cruz" in it. Maybe try Loucruze, Tecruz, Cruzia, or Zurc.

[Cruz]

The games do not always invlove sneaking, true, but atlaest the option is there

A comment has been made on the balance in the middle. That the rubble next to the top middle keep, offers an unfair advatage to players attacking taht keep.
Any comments on that?

[Cruz]

I made the map a little taller increasing the distanced in the middle abit and added a mountain cross in the middle too

Anyways here is a picture of the slightly bigger map

Spoiler:

And the map file
http://folk.uio.no/kjellwi/TheCruzMultiMapv1.05a

[Cruz]

Hmm, its becoming a bigger and bigger problem to find challenging opponents '
And for some reason people tend to leave more input when winning than losing.

No one on the offical server has come with any meaningful input since i expanded the map

Edit: typos

[Caphriel]

What times are you online, GMT?

[Cruz]

Well it might vary abit more now, was i was planning to work @ work next week

But somewhere between GMT+1 11:00 to 15:00. Mon -Fri

[Cruz]

This lack of proper feedback from games on the servers is starting to get frustrating

The best input i've gotten the last 3 days is: "your map is unbalanced cause skeleton leaders will hide in the deep water behind the starting position"

And im not even sure if i should at the fact he pointed it out or the prospect there might be players out there doing it...

[Turuk]

This lack of proper feedback from games on the servers is starting to get frustrating

The best input i've gotten the last 3 days is: "your map is unbalanced cause skeleton leaders will hide in the deep water behind the starting position"

And im not even sure if i should at the fact he pointed it out or the prospect there might be players out there doing it...

That, actually, is a very valid point. If the opposing player has no units that can go in deep water, it is an easy way for someone to protect their leader while their units kill off whatever unit made it that far.... or it's a way for an immature player to avoid having to lose the game.

[Caphriel]

Additionally, imagine you're Loyalists and your opponent hides a Deathblade/revenant leader out there. The only thing you can get out there are merman fighters, which the enemy leader will maul a great many of before finally succumbing to their attacks. Now imagine that you sneak a group of units around the edge to assassinate the enemy leader, and he just jumps in the lake and laughs at you.