Why do Undead have submerge when Merfolk don't?

Darker_Dreams · Post by **Darker_Dreams** » February 8th, 2008, 12:10 am

Tweaked subject line to something more meaningful --Irrevenant

This could be a spectacularly stupid question, and I can only imagine it's been asked before;

Why do a significant number of undead (skele's and Liches) have Submerge, while not one unit in the only legitimately aquatic race in the game don't have a single unit with it?

Post by AI » February 8th, 2008, 12:12 am

Probably because they aren't fish and aren't dead, so they need to breathe.

Post by **zookeeper** » February 8th, 2008, 12:15 am

Merman comes to the surface to breathe every now and then: you see the merman.

Skeleton hangs around at the bottom of the sea: you don't see the skeleton.

exodia91 · Post by **exodia91** » February 8th, 2008, 12:27 am

I thought mermen had gills and lungs so they could do both.... like that lungfish thingy

[PA] NotUncleDave · February 8th, 2008, 12:34 am

it's probably to do with the fact that a skeleton can remain motionless, whereas an aquatic creature has to, er, water-breathe- leaving bubble trails and whatnot, making them more detectable.

that and balance against the factions that rely on flyers to conquer watery areas, i suppose. drakes vs. submerged mermen would be pain, definitely

gotrek860 · Post by **gotrek860** » February 8th, 2008, 12:38 am

If mermen could live underwater all the time then they wouldn't be able to survive on land, like on the beaches for example.

Think of them like Dolphins or whales.

Darker_Dreams · Post by **Darker_Dreams** » February 8th, 2008, 2:46 am

gotrek860 wrote:If mermen could live underwater all the time then they wouldn't be able to survive on land, like on the beaches for example.

Think of them like Dolphins or whales.

Do you know how long dolphins, whales, and seals can go without breathing? People to want to see orcas have to look fairly hard to find them even when they know a general area and have modern technology- and thats when they aren't trying not to be found. Like the other justifications of this via realism, an admirable attempt- but it lacks a certain versimillitude.

I know that Pirates of the Carrabean was a cool movie- but those weren't holding still either, which counteracts that justification.

[PA] NotUncleDave wrote:that and balance against the factions that rely on flyers to conquer watery areas, i suppose. drakes vs. submerged mermen would be pain, definitely

mermen vs virtually any land race=pain. mermen vs knalgans?

My big question there; is control/the ability to sneak through deep water really worth that much? there are, AFAIK, two types of "Deep Water" terraine- neither are towns or castles/keeps. (though I've considered making a scenario with a keep/castle that just happens to look like deep water...)

I'm thinking you just don't see large deepwater formations that other units are close to the way you see forests...

JW · Post by JW » February 8th, 2008, 4:12 am

I understand your psychological dilemma, but the fact is it would probably effect water battles too much and in a way that the MP devs don't want to deal with.

I'm not saying your argument has no merit, I'm just saying that changing this would effect the way games are played, not just how games play out. That kind of change is usually avoided nowadays that balance has become so good.

Darker_Dreams · Post by **Darker_Dreams** » February 8th, 2008, 4:58 am

JW wrote:I understand your psychological dilemma, but the fact is it would probably effect water battles too much and in a way that the MP devs don't want to deal with.

fair enough. It is something to ponder though.

JW wrote:I'm not saying your argument has no merit, I'm just saying that changing this would effect the way games are played, not just how games play out. That kind of change is usually avoided nowadays that balance has become so good.

I suppose.

Post by **Jetrel** » February 8th, 2008, 6:29 am

Alternate tack:

How about making submerge a special ability only for a special L2 branch of mermen? (like the entangler/netcaster?)

Darker_Dreams · Post by **Darker_Dreams** » February 8th, 2008, 7:01 am

There's humor in the fact that there are almost as many undead units with submerge as there are units the entire mermen line.

Jetryl wrote:Alternate tack:

How about making submerge a special ability only for a special L2 branch of mermen? (like the entangler/netcaster?)

I was thinking about a seperate line, something like "merman diver" -> ?. but adding it do an existing one works for me. I'm still trying to get the hang of just frankenstining sprites...

A first glance says that the Spearman/Javelineer might be slightly weaker, and thus more "worthy" of the bump. A second glance says they're the archer-equivilant, which would make giving them the rogue/stealth bit appropriate...
well, the whole hunter line is "rogue," but the spearman doesn't have anything break-out nifty, unlike the entangler slow or the fighter damage...

Then again, the possibilities for submerge-net-submerge could be fun.

Anyway, I obviously think that adding it to selected mermen unit is a worthwhile idea. I think that some of the hunter-dirivatives should get it,
and I think the Siren, as a quasi-neriad, ought to get it too.

Post by **megane** » February 8th, 2008, 8:00 am

Jetryl wrote:Alternate tack:

How about making submerge a special ability only for a special L2 branch of mermen? (like the entangler/netcaster?)

There's a Naga Depthstalker with submerge in EE, IIRC...

A submerging merman branch would certainly make plenty of sense, and it's not like it would present a game-breaking shift in balance, either (I mean, the fact that Skels can submerge is such a huge tactical advantage

).

EDIT: curse you, Darker, you ninja .-.

Darker_Dreams · Post by **Darker_Dreams** » February 8th, 2008, 8:31 am

?

*Briefly considers trying to change his SN to Nightstalk_Ninja, then discards the idea and wonders why he was called a Ninja in the first place.*

Wait, a naga line with submerge, but no mermen? I... ...ok then.

gotrek860 · Post by **gotrek860** » February 8th, 2008, 9:19 am

Like the other justifications of this via realism, an admirable attempt- but it lacks a certain versimillitude.

I'm not commandant Cousteau... I was proposing an analogy for a race that DOESN'T exist...to a problem noone really cares about.
sdorry they do exist...maybe you should ask one.

Darker_Dreams · Post by **Darker_Dreams** » February 8th, 2008, 6:59 pm

gotrek860 wrote:
Like the other justifications of this via realism, an admirable attempt- but it lacks a certain versimillitude.
I'm not commandant Cousteau... I was proposing an analogy for a race that DOESN'T exist...to a problem noone really cares about.
sdorry they do exist...maybe you should ask one.

I'm not commandant Cousteau either. In fact, I live smack in the middle of the US... I've seen an ocean all of once in my life. I'm not saying that it was a bad analogy.

I'm saying that, based on a little research, evidence from that analogy actually leads in the opposite direction.