Undead vs. Undead: Technically balanced, but not very fun

[Glowing Fish]

So, I think the wide consensus is that all the factions are balanced.

One match-up, however, while perhaps technically being balanced, and still having some strategic challenges, is still boring.

I am talking about, of course, Undead vs. Undead. There may be a few people who still find these games interesting, but how many here actually like playing these games? Waiting for your ghosts, skeletons and skeleton archers to nickel and dime each other to death gets tedious. The Dark Adept becomes useless, with its cold attack, as does the ghoul with its poison. It comes down to whether or not you want to send waves of Walking Corpses or waves of Skeletons against your enemies Walking Corpses or Skeletons.

At least this is what I feel, and I think I am not alone in this.

The problem is, to introduce a unit with a meaningful attack against undead (meaning a unit with real impact or fire damage) would mean rebalancing undead against all the other factions, too. But I do think something should be done, since most people, unless they have lots of time and patience, would just start again if they got an Undead vs. Undead game.

[Imp]

Perhaps it doesn't need to be that difficult.

Undead are the only units with poison resistance, right? Perhaps we can create an attack type that capitalises on that. I don't know what we would call it - let's say for now, Opposite Poison, or OP. It only affects units immune to poison. The unit that uses OP is not undead itself (or it can be if we decide that makes things more interesting), allowing the opponent to counter it with DA's. OP does not have to be a damage type, but can be like a form of poison against undead only. Or it can be a damage type if we want. Only undead will have access to OP, to ensure it doesn't create balancing issues with other factions. If we like this idea, all that's required is coming up with a name for it. The description could be "something that accelerates decay despite the magic reanimating the undead." Hopefully it wouldn't require too much to program, as it would do the same check as poison, except with opposite results. That is, if poison immune, gets OP'd. If not poison immune, doe snot get OP'd. If OP'd, loses 18 HP per turn (or some suitable number) until cured in a village, cannot go below 1 HP, etc.

That's just the first idea that occurred to me, with the idea of using as many of the features in place as possible. I'm sure there are more, but I kind of like this idea now that it's written down...

[Jodwin]

Without giving it any serious thought, I'll say drop skeleton, skeleton archer and ghost cold resistance by 10 % (to 50 % on skeletons and 60 % on ghost). That'll let adepts do slightly more damage, without changing overall balance too much, I think, since the only other cold damage units available to recruit in default era are saurian augurs.

Yeah, whatever.

[commanderkeen]

I think the OP idea isn't really good, mainly because it's too similar to poison. I like the idea of reducing cold resistances, as I think the skellies should only have 30-40% cold resistance. Or the more insane idea of a new unit. I know that isn't going to happen, but a Skeleton Crusader with a 7-2 Holy attack or a similar unit just sounds funny.

[tsr]

I just came up with this idea that requires you to forget about the augur for moment:

How about having skellies (and skelly-archers) being 'frozen' when hit by cold so that for one round (just like slow) their resistances to physical damages are halved? (to prevent rebalancing with augurs you could give the DA a special 'freeze')

And also maybe changing the ghouls damage from slash to impact (the only units I can remember where it matters are are skellies, drakes and trolls, but you'd want them poisoned anyway)

/tsr - random idea outputter

[UngeheuerLich]

the Idea of giving ghouls impact damage also came to my mind.

It would change the damage vs some loyalists too, but damage from ghouls is usually a secondary effect. It would also affect the damage against woses, where ghouls are sometimes needed (on day especially)...

maybe you could instead give ghouls another attack (call it punch or whatever with 6-2 Impact, no poison. But it should be made sure that the ghoul defends with the poison attack, when enemy hp is too high to kill it directly... but i don´t know how the defensive weapon choice is made.

remember, it is just an idea... i neither expect that you all like it, nor do I think it should be done... it is just another opinion which the devs can consider when eveloping their game. I expect though polite answers if you answer.


edit:


I just noticed in the newest unit stats, that undead(race) WCs have 6-2 impact, where in undead(faction) they have 5-2 as it is in 1.2.1.

Which one is wrong?

6-2 would definitely make them better in undead vs undead matches, which could lead to a slight faster game.

but against other factions they could get to strong. (although in my personal opinion it is worth a try)

[Karo]

Or the more insane idea of a new unit. I know that isn't going to happen, but a Skeleton Crusader with a 7-2 Holy attack or a similar unit just sounds funny.

I actually doodled a series of sketches about a skeleton crusader. It was funny.

[Glowing Fish]

Or the more insane idea of a new unit. I know that isn't going to happen, but a Skeleton Crusader with a 7-2 Holy attack or a similar unit just sounds funny.

I actually doodled a series of sketches about a skeleton crusader. It was funny.

Not that I didn't bring this up as a serious issue, but I am also having fun with all the slightly crazy ideas people have for Undead units.
My own contribution was the Insane Burning Bat with a berserk fire attack.

[Velensk]

A souloution that would work to make this match more interesting and don't mind screwing up other matches could be something like this

Make ghoul have impact damage and resistance to blade (counter skelly) Possibly give higher damage.

Decrease Ghoul cold resistance so that dark adepts/ ghosts can kill it.

Skeloton still kill dark adepts, Dark adepts could struggle to kill ghosts (possibly lower ghost cold resistance)

I am not accualy reconmending this as it would make matches against other races change slightly. Though looking back on it I cannot put a finger on a problem I am sure someone else can.

[Doc Paterson]

the Idea of giving ghouls impact damage also came to my mind.

Poisonous Shoulder Charge!!!

[Martinus]

I find matches against same factions more boring anyway (dwarves vs dwarves, loyalists vs loyalists etc.) so I dont think you should change anything in undead faction.

[UngeheuerLich]

the Idea of giving ghouls impact damage also came to my mind.

Poisonous Shoulder Charge!!!




There is actually a wonderfully fun solution in the works, but I'm not sure how the others feel about revealing it, as it's in the nascent stages. Stay tuned.

poisonous shoulder charge... this is actually better than the idea of giving a non poisonous fist attack

[UngeheuerLich]

also, don´t forget... ghouls live on mars and use contact poison!

[UngeheuerLich]

I find matches against same factions more boring anyway (dwarves vs dwarves, loyalists vs loyalists etc.) so I dont think you should change anything in undead faction.

mirror matches are often boring... but for the undead race you have no real counter to your own units since WCs lost their blade and pierce resis!

[Blarumyrran]

loyalist vs loyalist goes way faster. undead vs undead takes very long.

the only good non-rebalancement-needing change would be to give undead a unit with ranged holy, but vulnerable to physical melee (otherwise undie vs undie would turn into using this unit only, 'twould be boring). perhaps a (dark/crimson/cursed) (fairy/pixie)?