Troll debate

[Higher Game]

Trolls can counter damn near anything, though. If a proper line formation is made, it's almost always impossible to kill a troll with only 2 units in the same turn. It's easy to kill a grunt with 2 units, since you just have to have all or most hits connect, and lots of people have natural luck. Trolls are favored by the skilled players who don't rely on chance. To beat trolls, you have to have lots of luck, but trolls can win with less luck because they can revolve out injured units and replace them much more easily than with other units.

[Doc Paterson]

Trolls can counter damn near anything, though. If a proper line formation is made, it's almost always impossible to kill a troll with only 2 units in the same turn. It's easy to kill a grunt with 2 units, since you just have to have all or most hits connect, and lots of people have natural luck. Trolls are favored by the skilled players who don't rely on chance. To beat trolls, you have to have lots of luck, but trolls can win with less luck because they can revolve out injured units and replace them much more easily than with other units.

I think this calls for a chocolate boomerang.

[unsung]

Trolls can counter damn near anything, though. If a proper line formation is made, it's almost always impossible to kill a troll with only 2 units in the same turn. It's easy to kill a grunt with 2 units, since you just have to have all or most hits connect, and lots of people have natural luck. Trolls are favored by the skilled players who don't rely on chance. To beat trolls, you have to have lots of luck, but trolls can win with less luck because they can revolve out injured units and replace them much more easily than with other units.

Nope.

Try fighting calvalry or horsemen outside of mountains with trolls, you don't just die- You get to claim a rich man killed you.

Trolls are the easiest thing in the game to counter IMHO.

[Gus]

Trolls can counter damn near anything, though. If a proper line formation is made, it's almost always impossible to kill a troll with only 2 units in the same turn. It's easy to kill a grunt with 2 units, since you just have to have all or most hits connect, and lots of people have natural luck. Trolls are favored by the skilled players who don't rely on chance. To beat trolls, you have to have lots of luck, but trolls can win with less luck because they can revolve out injured units and replace them much more easily than with other units.

Once more, we're in a "Higher Game's opinion against the whole community's". Mind showing us replays of this wonderful tactics?

Look, we've been asking you to provide replays and/or play others online for quite some time now. You've ignored such requests but have kept providing strategic insights of dubious value. Just prove that you're right, and i'll be the first to say i was wrong to doubt your ability.

[JW]

Trolls can counter damn near anything, though. If a proper line formation is made, it's almost always impossible to kill a troll with only 2 units in the same turn. It's easy to kill a grunt with 2 units, since you just have to have all or most hits connect, and lots of people have natural luck. Trolls are favored by the skilled players who don't rely on chance. To beat trolls, you have to have lots of luck, but trolls can win with less luck because they can revolve out injured units and replace them much more easily than with other units.

Trolls have worse defense than Grunts and do less damage - and cost more.

Let's see your line of Trolls fight some Woses, Heavy Infantry, Burners, etc.

Stop giving advice, and stop making obviously false claims since I don't think you've even played with any skilled players.

ps, the computer doesn't count.

[Higher Game]

Try fighting calvalry or horsemen outside of mountains with trolls, you don't just die- You get to claim a rich man killed you.

Trolls are the easiest thing in the game to counter IMHO.

Horsemen have a good chance of missing, and when they do, they get hit back HARD. Plus, only a rich man uses them, as you said. Trolls win with numbers here. Cavalry are definitely tougher, but they have low defense everywhere, while trolls do well in hills and mountains, so it's a close match actually. They're definitely not a dominant counter. Cavalry are still one of my favorite units, though.

Trolls have worse defense than Grunts and do less damage - and cost more.

Let's see your line of Trolls fight some Woses, Heavy Infantry, Burners, etc.

Stop giving advice, and stop making obviously false claims since I don't think you've even played with any skilled players.

ps, the computer doesn't count.

The computer owns me all the time. I still win about 40% of the time, and I think that's pretty good since the AI is very good in Wesnoth.

As for woses, they don't have any traits, so quick trolls can outrun them, giving an important tactical advantage, even if they won't win all the time in combat. Trolls are notably cheaper, too. Finally, night owns day, since first blood happens at night almost all the time, since the game starts at day.

Heavy infantry were nerfed with lowered impact resistance, they don't regenerate, and they're very easy to hit. Trolls win due to regeneration, numbers, and night advantage.

Burners are extremely powerful, as are all drakes. Trolls aren't great against them, but they survive better than goblins and archers, even if their damage is less. It really depends on the terrain and situation here. A mix of trolls and goblins should work if the trolls can protect them.

Finally, the night damage difference between trolls and grunts isn't as big as the base difference, and the lack of intelligent trait gives the troll a high chance of being strong. The higher defense of the troll is worth the slightly reduced damage. Interestingly, if matches started at night (or a random time), the grunt would be more valuable, since he would have to sit in villages to defend the following day, when combat starts. However, because most combat starts on the first night on most maps, village defense for northerners isn't as important, so the grunt's role is diminished.

[Dragonking]

The computer owns me all the time. I still win about 40% of the time, and I think that's pretty good since the AI is very good in Wesnoth.

Whoa.

I can't even imagine how he play this game...

[Soliton]

The computer owns me all the time. I still win about 40% of the time, and I think that's pretty good since the AI is very good in Wesnoth.

Whoa.

I can't even imagine how he play this game...

He follows his own advice, d'uh.

[zookeeper]

The computer owns me all the time. I still win about 40% of the time, and I think that's pretty good since the AI is very good in Wesnoth.

I haven't really ever played solo MP against the AI, but I'm pretty confident I'd beat the AI about 90% of the time and I don't consider myself to be a pro player. As others have pointed out (in a more flamey manner, shame on them), you should most likely practise more before...well, before making especially hard claims about tactical situations (like what units counter what units). Certainly discussion, even if you're a relative beginner, isn't bad or undesireable, but it seems you tend to make pretty hard claims about capabilities of certain units, which can be misinterpreted by other newbies as being solid advice, where in reality it's more like your current interpretation of the unit's capabilities based on relatively small amount of experience.

I agree however that the Wesnoth AI is pretty good (probably due to the simple gameplay rules), and definitely good enough as a campaign opponent, but it's still far from being a worthy opponent in a fair fight (equal starting resources on even a fairly balanced map).

[commander keen]

I've yet to win an MP game, and my strategy sucks, but I win against AI a LOT more than 40% of the time!

Unless he only plays himself on Max AI's, I don't see how he can win less than half of the time. I'd say the average player should win 90%, maybe 95%+ of reasonably matched vs. AI games.

I usually spam trolls with mages and archers. I can't say that's a perfect counter, but it has worked for me with virtually no losses. Maybe your troll "strategy" works for you. But I think that trolls are easily killed. Slowing them is good too, especially on 1.0.2, but it is not necessary.

[unsung]

Horsemen have a good chance of missing, and when they do, they get hit back HARD. Plus, only a rich man uses them, as you said. Trolls win with numbers here. Cavalry are definitely tougher, but they have low defense everywhere, while trolls do well in hills and mountains, so it's a close match actually. They're definitely not a dominant counter. Cavalry are still one of my favorite units, though.

Uhhh- both get a 40% defence on plains, which if i remember right is better than a trolls- and plenty of poor people use calvalry- I was refering to the fact that the calvalryman would be rich.

And the horsemen have a very good chance to hit- 60% perstrike, and hiding in mountains doesn't help, since there a few villages up there.

and about the HI- They aren't much worse in defence than trolls, do more damage, and have better resitances.

You seem to place to much stock in regeneration- its not worth a damn if you get caught in the plains and are dealt 10 or 20 damage and only deal 9 or so in return.

[JW]

Stop giving advice, and stop making obviously false claims since I don't think you've even played with any skilled players.

ps, the computer doesn't count.

The computer owns me all the time. I still win about 40% of the time, and I think that's pretty good since the AI is very good in Wesnoth.

I've never lost to the AI when he has similar gold, ever.

I've only lost to the AI when I give it 3x more gold, 3x more players, or it's a difficult campaign/scenario.

I've beaten 1v5 computers on Smallolof many times.

The computer sucks.

Stop making strategy "guides" and saying Wesnoth is imbalanced.

Play 1.1.11 and get good at the game - then maybe people will listen to you.

Good day.

[Tony Almeida]

I don't think he's written a single sentence that hasn't been absurd beyond absurd.

And losing to the AI on multiplayer? Hide your face in shame! A lot of us here have never lost to the AI, and that includes time spent as noobs.

Higher Game, just get on the server already so that you can get a clue.

[5dPZ]

The computer owns me all the time. I still win about 40% of the time, and I think that's pretty good since the AI is very good in Wesnoth.

wesnoth AI sux quite a bit and requires serious upgrade.

Also, trolls are easily pwned without mountains.

[Zhukov]

The computer owns me all the time. I still win about 40% of the time, and I think that's pretty good since the AI is very good in Wesnoth.

Higher Game does it again.

...and I think the last piece of the puzzle just fell into place.