Whatever happened to Vampires?

[Jetrel]

Relax, ... (bunch of other stuff)

I would like to thank you for making a reasonably clear and respectful post.


My final word on the subject: I do have problems with vampires. I have never been fond of that strain of fantasy, and don't want to see it in wesnoth. Part of the other problem it creates is that vampires exist in a fantasy world with only themselves and mortal men.

Their propogation is based on passing a curse into the soul of their victims. Elves do not have the same kinds of souls that mankind does - they exist in more than one world at once.

Dwarves are immune to that kind of magic - in LOTR, Sauron had no power to turn dwarves into wraiths, even though he could easily do so to men. I imagine he could have mutilated stock of their race into a new form of goblinoid, a la Morgoth+Elves but that would have taken an aeon, generations of them.


As regards the concept of vampires, the problem with using blood as the medium for sustaining unlife is that that immediately indentifies the unit as a "vampire" and then everyone tries to faust all these other ideas that you said you didn't like onto them. I don't like those ideas either, but people would clamor for them, and we would need a defense against their reasons - I cannot think of one.

I honestly prefer undead that do not need to be sustained, as it would contradict most of the ideas I had in my storyline post above.

Addtionally, for the campaign I am working on, one would have to wonder what would happen with a vampire biting a Ma'kresh, or one of the Sheajêr, (if it could get that close). This is a meeting that I don't want to consider. It might be funny, but it is of the same caliber as a showdown between say ... Darth Vader and Sauron. It would involve a lot of ass-kicking, but the basic premise would be dumb - this is the same reason why I hate Warhammer 40K (Space Orcs?), which is that I find collisions between fantasy worlds, done for no reason other than the novelty of imagining what would happen, to be shallow, and devoid of meaning.



So, feel free to make your own vampire campaign, but do know that my vote is against it's inclusion in the main distro, and I will fight tooth and nail to NOT have vamps in multiplayer. Hopefully, my opinion is worth something.

[Darth Fool]

Ok, so I mentioned the McKiernon Series previously as one in which vampires co-existed (not nicely, mind you) in a world with elves, dwarves, etc... but to completely debunk the argument:

Part of the other problem it creates is that vampires exist in a fantasy world with only themselves and mortal men.

I would like to point to source from which modern fantasy cliche gets most its original material; Tolkien himself used vampires (granted minimally) in the Silmarillion. a quote from The Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/)

Vampires
Bat-winged creatures of darkness

Meaning: An old Hungarian name for an animated corpse1

Mysterious bat-like creatures in the service of Morgoth and of Sauron. The only vampire that Tolkien names is Sauron's servant Thuringwethil, but Sauron himself took the form of a vampire on at least one occasion.

Notes
1 Tolkien's use of vampire seems clearly influenced by its more modern associations, rather than its original Magyar meaning. In terms of the story, vampire is probably intended as a translation of an unknown Mannish name for these monsters: bat-winged, but apparently otherwise human-like in shape.

now as I have said before, just because some cliches are in wesnoth doesn't mean that more need to be, nor that the ideas should be thrown out just because they are cliche. people who do not want vampires in wesnoth do not need to play the campaign that is being proposed here, and if the devs don't like them they won't include the campaign in the official release. Frankly, I think people who oppose vampire inclusion, should be encouraging those who like the idea to go off and make a campaign. The amount of work that goes into making one is sufficient to deter most people once they realize it, and so the idea will probably die. But, for the sake of argument, say the idea lives on long after its first death, and someone comes out with a vampire campaign. I present three possibiliites.

One, it sucks. result, no chance that vampires will get included in the main game.

Two. it is mediocre. result, probably will spawn long forum discussions on how to improve it. I doubt, with the number of campaigns being made, now, that a mediocre campaign will be included officialy, so this will either stagnate or lead to changes that make it either suck (see one) or

three: it actually is good. Now, I want to know, who has a problem with someone producing a good campaign, even if it has vampires in it?

[lilepo2023]

i'm still trying to figure out how a necromancer can turn into a lich. a lich i could have sworn was an evil spirt who stole souls, a necromancer on the other hand brings up skeletons from fallen warriors...

[Plasticgod]

i'm still trying to figure out how a necromancer can turn into a lich. a lich i could have sworn was an evil spirt who stole souls, a necromancer on the other hand brings up skeletons from fallen warriors...

To make it simple, a Necromancer with great power trough his studies can retrieve some tomes that explain how to make the ritual to achieve the greates power of the Dark world, power that belongs to the Liches.
It consists, mainly, in two rituals.
One is the creation of the Philactery*, the other one is the transformation of the Living Body into an undead vessel.
Lichdoom has real big advantage compared to others undead forms, because a Lich cant die or being destroyed. The only way to slain him is by finding where the Philactery is, and then destroy it.

*The Philactery works as an "anchor" to the world for the Lich's soul.

[LordTobias]

It also does depend on the type of Liche you are using. From what world, I mean. Some have to perform Dark Rituals while mages (not necessarily Necromancers, but that is the general fantasy consensus), or have a will so indomitable that they can't be killed.

And there's another one that the mages actually DO die. Just some unwitting person in his endeavor for power raises one, or performs some wicked ritual, etc etc.

So, there are tons of ways. Besides, if you don't like any of them, you CAN make up your own. That's part of fantasy: being able to spawn your own ideas without much worry. (Note: Hoping on that without much worry part)

Jetryl, I can see your qualms with vampires existing in a humans only world, but I've seen then implemented in other things, and, if done correctly (emphasis on correct), they can be very excellent.

Also, I STROOOOONGLY hate the whole "I'll turn into a vampire if I am bit by one" idea. It bothers me. Main reason is: do you have any idea how many vampires there would be? They'd be created exponentially! 1 is 2. 2 is 4, 4 is 8, and so on and so on. It just doesn't make a lick of sense.

I had this idea before reading Warhammer and Vampire: The Masquerade, but, really, it's the same idea. It's called "The Embrace" or "The Blood Kiss." This is selective vampirism, really. The vampire, first, however, has to kill his victim, then grants unto him some of his own power, etc etc. Voila, new vampire, albeit weaker.

Even so, that might not fit into a typical orcs and Elves campaign, right? Well, just hear this part out, as well:

Vampires are selective. VERY selective -- even finicky, fickle, and picky. No Vampire in his right mind (which is arguable, but that's beside the point! ) would ever consider embracing an Orc or a Dwarf. Besides, Dwarves are an incredibly stubborn lot, and I see it incredibly difficult to be able to turn one. Raise his corpse as a zombie? Yes. Turn him into a Vampire? Hell no.

The only non-human race I can think of that Vampires would turn are Elves. I have a solution to this, although it seems like it would be very difficult to code. They can only turn certain types of Elves like Heroes or Champions, and they only get raised as level 1 characters. But, as I said, that seems like it might be more trouble than it's worth.

All it comes down to is this: What would be easier to code? Only spawning human units as Vampire Thralls (this also requires a level 3 vampire, mind you -- maybe level 2,-- but looking at level 3), or spawning both humans and certain kinds of Elves?

What do you folks think of that?

Note: I am also, with Plasticgod, working on some classes that are going to be specifically designed to kill off Vampires. And, rest assured, they will certainly be in the campaign. Which leads me to an idea: If my campaign is as good as I am hoping, this could create another faction. Or I could just add some of those classes to an existing faction. Probably the latter, since it really is a pain in the ass creating that many different models, etc etc.

[LordTobias]

Argle argle! Damn web browser...it posted my post twice, so that's why I'm double posting...::grumble grumble::

[LordTobias]

I forgot to mention earlier:

I'd appreciate feed back of all types. But please, be clear with your feed back. If it's not for my ideas, tell me why, rather than saying it's not good. If it's good, can ya say why? (This way I'll know what ideas are generally liked and generally disliked)

Also, in a couple days (I'm fickle, one could say) I'll post a few base models of vampires and a few other units.

Er...one quick thing. Anyone supportive of my ideas, or just someone who is very kind (I'm hopin'!): could you pleeeeeeeease make a wolf graphic? A particularly large wolf that's dirty brownish. (Thinking about a wolf chain for scouts)

[Bander]

Here are some more images for your pleasure:

I think that this one is my main model

[LordTobias]

The only thing I dislike about the model is the color different. Go with something a little bit darker. Otherwise, it's looking good. (Maybe paler skin, too...)

Lemme alter the colors around and see what I come up with.

Good model, though. (Thanks a bunch)

~Tobias

[Bander]

... And here's a wolf

[LordTobias]

Hmm...gives me an idea for Shadow Wolves... I like it.

Can you make a basic model for one? (think level one-ish) Maybe it dirty brown-gray. Basically...can you take the existing model, make the tail stick out a little more and look shaggy, and give it a snout.

Shadow Wolves I like, though...har har.

[Bander]

Here's a smaller, furrier, slightly different colored version.

Suprisingly hard to make. I think the sleek version looks better.

[LordTobias]

Now that one is almost exactly what I am looking for. Only thing that needs changing is the color scheme. Could you make it brown/black/gray?

[LordTobias]

With the vampire...I changed the color of his pants to black. I changed around the reds a little bit, and made it so his shirt sorta looks torn up. Also gave him a LOT of hair (like an 80s rocker, almost...heh eh). Looks kinda like it's blowing in the wind.

But, I am incredibly tired, and don't feel like doing his hands. (Worked around some different skin tones, as well)

I'll post tomorrow the new picture, probably.

~Tobias

[Bander]

Here's a try at it