Burn baby, burn

[CyberJack]

I have read your previous posts, I just think the ability is less fitting for fire-breathers and more for some other group. If they've already got the ability to breathe fire, why do they need to evolve a second form of defense? This doesn't sound like much of an offensive attack for a hunter, it would destroy the food, and something that high up the food chain hardly needs explicitly defensive weaponry.

Option 1: it didn't evolve, it's something they've discovered incidentally. They need to have raw materials for it, which is one reason why they don't all do it, only those who get hooked on pine resin at an early age

Option 2: a biological capability need provide no advantage in order to persist, as long as it is not disadvantageous. The ability to throw up at will could be just such a thing. Or it might have evolved as a purgative, rather than as a weapon; and only be used by those tribes of drakes who've realised it's effectiveness as an alternative weapon.

Orcs and even saurians don't have sufficiently exotic biochemistry for a combustive/acidic (or combustive/caustic) compound like this. Don't know either of these. Sorry.

Pip and Worf ARE examples of how humanoids or reptiles would have "sufficiently exotic biochemistries" to do this sort of thing.
Pip is from Alan Dean Foster's Flinx series of novels; it's a telepathic flying snake that spits a frivolously corrosive neurotoxin at its enemies, a spatter anywhere on the body is generally fatal, the face especially so. (I should point out that we have spitting cobras in real life...)

Neurotoxin != fire. Terrestrial biology generally doesn't seem to have evolved to use (rapid) combustion for anything much; perhaps it's just too difficult.

Worf is the Klingon on Star Trek, big badass warrior humanoid, and in one episode he mutates into a form which spits a similar caustic neurotoxin.

Yes, I do know of Worf, just not that episode (which obviously belongs in a fantasy series rather than anything calling itself science fiction )

To further put this in perspective...Orcs and Saurians are allowed to exist, but only if they have "normal" biochemistries? WINR doesn't extend to the cellular level?

Nothing in Wesnoth (or Tolkien, for that matter) says that Orcs are significantly different from any other carbon-based oxygen-breathing DNA-coded organism ("If you prick us, do we not bleed?"). They're not even as exotic as monotremes. Ditto Saurians, which are described as being cold-blooded, like lizards, and even taste quite like chicken. So in the absence of documentation of them having chloro-diethoxy-sulfanylidene-phosphorane in their veins, I think we can assume basically terrestrial biology (KISS!)

Drakes are another matter. They're already described as "having an internal fire", so they're clearly pretty exotic. If that means they drink hydrocarbons and chew phosphorus ore and spew the mixture in a burning stream, I have no problem with that

[CyberJack]

I'm starting to like the idea of geometrically decending damage done, ever since Jack said that thing on how battles don't last days.

Aaargh! Didn't you read that I said arithmetic progression would make for much better gameplay?

IMNSHO, of course.

The random damage idea doesn't sound so good anymore. Lets say, a 5-4 attack for the Fire Drake with BURN placed with it. And then, the Inferno Drake could have a 6-5 attack with INCINERATE. Or, do you think that we shouldn't have another attack, and just stick with INCINERATE?

*Sigh*

Go back and read http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 2557#72557 et seq?

[stillnotelf]

Option 2: a biological capability need provide no advantage in order to persist, as long as it is not disadvantageous.

(I might argue that anything that adds weight to a flying creature is inherently disadvantageous...but I won't; see below)

Neurotoxin != fire.

I know, I was being complete for the sake of correctness. The materials were clearly caustic as well, I beleive Dr. Crusher needed "reconstructive surgery" on her face, and I know Pip's venom melted anything: faces, handcuffs, brooms...

Nothing in Wesnoth (or Tolkien, for that matter) says that Orcs are significantly different from any other carbon-based oxygen-breathing DNA-coded organism ("If you prick us, do we not bleed?"). They're not even as exotic as monotremes. Ditto Saurians, which are described as being cold-blooded, like lizards, and even taste quite like chicken. So in the absence of documentation of them having chloro-diethoxy-sulfanylidene-phosphorane in their veins, I think we can assume basically terrestrial biology (KISS!)

You cannot use realism + KISS to defeat WINR. AAAA, Association Against Acronym Abuse.

I think we're delving into the ridculous trying to prove why, "scientifically", one fantasy creature is more or less likely to have evolved fantasy chemicals than another fantasy creature. It should be a question of aesthetics and believability. I personally would find fire breathing drakes, and acid-spitting orcs, more believable than fire AND acid-spitting drakes. I KNOW I've read a book with acid-spitting goblins, I just can't think of it right now. I think it should come down to the combo of "what helps balance" and "what units do users want to have the ability" more than wildly speculative science. (This is hard for me to say; wildly speculative argument-science is one of my favorite pasttimes...)

[CyberJack]

Option 2: a biological capability need provide no advantage in order to persist, as long as it is not disadvantageous.

(I might argue that anything that adds weight to a flying creature is inherently disadvantageous...but I won't; see below)

Oh go on ... that I can explain that the need to reduce weight before flying is what led them to evolve the ability to disgorge their stomach contents at will

(BTW, some birds do this for emergency takeoffs or if attacked in flight. Although usually through the other end of the digestive tract ... )

Neurotoxin != fire.

I know, I was being complete for the sake of correctness. The materials were clearly caustic as well, I beleive Dr. Crusher needed "reconstructive surgery" on her face, and I know Pip's venom melted anything: faces, handcuffs, brooms...

Caustic != fire too. Quite a few RL creatures have attacks using caustic (alkaline) or acid or neurotoxic substances, very few can use fire. Remember I've always described this as a (somewhat) inflammable as well as acidic or caustic compound.

Nothing in Wesnoth (or Tolkien, for that matter) says that Orcs are significantly different from any other carbon-based oxygen-breathing DNA-coded organism ("If you prick us, do we not bleed?"). They're not even as exotic as monotremes. Ditto Saurians, which are described as being cold-blooded, like lizards, and even taste quite like chicken. So in the absence of documentation of them having chloro-diethoxy-sulfanylidene-phosphorane in their veins, I think we can assume basically terrestrial biology (KISS!)

You cannot use realism + KISS to defeat WINR. AAAA, Association Against Acronym Abuse.

KISS => realism, except where reality is more complicated than we'd like
"Entitia non multiplicanda sunt" ("Entities shall not be multiplied beyond necessity" - William of Ockham). Adding exotic biology to Orcs looks like an extra entitium(concept), whereas Drakes are already exotic by definition.

I think we're delving into the ridculous trying to prove why, "scientifically", one fantasy creature is more or less likely to have evolved fantasy chemicals than another fantasy creature.

Well probably. But why not?
Though there's nothing very fantasy about the chemicals; they're all quite real (even the chloro-diethoxy-sulfanylidene-phosphorane). And they could be discovered or developed rather than evolved (as they were by C5th BC humans).

It should be a question of aesthetics and believability. I personally would find fire breathing drakes, and acid-spitting orcs, more believable than fire AND acid-spitting drakes.

I don't mind acid-spitting orcs, if you like; but it would be ordinary nonflammable water-based acid, as used by several RL creatures. Not like the drakes flammable and corrosive mix of hydrocarbons and minerals

I KNOW I've read a book with acid-spitting goblins, I just can't think of it right now.

Artemis Fowl

I think it should come down to the combo of "what helps balance" and "what units do users want to have the ability" more than wildly speculative science. (This is hard for me to say; wildly speculative argument-science is one of my favorite pasttimes...)

"Mostly agree". Any effect has to have a plausible in-game explanation that at least isn't inconsistent with anything else in the game; otherwise it gets really hard to document (or maintain!). I don't mind an explanation along the lines of "that's the way (Wesnothian) magic works" if nothing else contradicts it. A self-consistent Wesnothian version of physics/chemistry/biology makes it easier for developers to implement, since they'll all be working to the same model.

Anyway, this thread started with the idea of a multiturn-damage attack for Drakes, so I've just been providing plausible mechanisms, and some suggestions w.r.t balance.

At least on Wesnoth we don't have to work out whether teleportation is FTL, or limited to c.

[Bander]

One solution is to have extra damage dealt at the end of battle to simulate the unit being burnt by the fires!

Another is like cyberjack says is to have drakes spit flaming acid at their foes which would deal damage over time, like poison, but I assume that the damage would eventually disipate. I think that this would be better suited to saurians, which I believe origonally had crests like that dinosaur from Jurassic Park.

A third solution is to ignore realism and Just have the units burn all day! IGNITE indeed.

After thinking about this way too much, I would have to say that I think that the third solution is the best, if this is ever considered for implamentation.

[Neoriceisgood]

Or we could have it that a "burned" unit takes extra damage from attacks until it is cured; Talk about evil =)

[Elvish_Pillager]

We could make 'burned' be just like Poison except not doing damage. That is, it wastes a turn of curing and prevents all healing.

[Dragonking]

We could make 'burned' be just like Poison except not doing damage. That is, it wastes a turn of curing and prevents all healing.

IMO VERY intresting idea. But how healers would take care of that? Poison can't be healed, just slowed by them.

[Elvish_Pillager]

IMO VERY intresting idea. But how healers would take care of that? Poison can't be healed, just slowed by them.

Like with poison, they would negate the effects instead of healing the unit. Unlike with poison, there are no effects, so all that means is that the healing wouldn't work.

[Bander]

I like Neorice's BURNED and EP's burn and I would really like a tag team combo! Where it would give penalties to armor and it would take a turn to be healed. Burn, baby BURN

[CyberJack]

IMO VERY intresting idea. But how healers would take care of that? Poison can't be healed, just slowed by them.

Like with poison, they would negate the effects instead of healing the unit. Unlike with poison, there are no effects, so all that means is that the healing wouldn't work.

Well, treating it as 0-damage poison would certainly make it easy to implement. One new flag, and a few lines in calculate_healing() But progressively-decreasing damage is hardly any more difficult.

BTW, no-one's answered my trick questions on healing at http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 2376#72376 yet ...

[Elvish_Pillager]

BTW, no-one's answered my trick questions on healing at http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 2376#72376 yet ...

Whoops, I was going to but got distracted.

[Assasin]

I would really like to change BURN to INCINERATE, it sounds better

We could make 'burned' be just like Poison except not doing damage. That is, it wastes a turn of curing and prevents all healing.

Interesting, but I like the arithmetic progression idea better. I thought that the fire that they breath were a bunch of chemicals that the secrete from their stomaches, which instantly ignite when they are combined with oxygen. So, it would be like the liquid fire of the flame thrower. Therefore, it would stick to things, like people and animals and dead people that aren't really dead. Thus saying, it would INCINERATE them, because they would be on FIRE!!!

[Disto]

How would you graphically show this?

[Neoriceisgood]

Either make the incenerated© unit red; Or have someone make a fire halo that goes over an incenerated unit; Though the second option may lag it, I vaguely remember the holy halo doing that; And that was just one.