Female Elf Archers--- what should we do?

[Jetrel]

OT: I wish I could draw like that. I'm getting closer, but "close" only counts with hand grenades.

[telex4]

I don't really understand this discussion. Reading through it, I can only find a handful of reasons for removing the female counterparts, which are:

1 - Usability; it takes you half a second more to figure out what kind of unit you have. But Wesnoth is already visually subtle and complex, and IMO the difference between male and female isn't any less usable than many other aspects of the game.

2 - Realism; some people seem to think that a female should have different stats to the male. But this just makes things more complex for no good reason. This is fantasy, so why shouldn't female elves be just as good as male elves? Why shouldn't female mages be as good as their male counterparts?

3 - Difference; the male and female aren't distinct enough, or the males need to be more male, or they're too different. There's no consensus here between the objectors, it's a matter for the artists to decide, as with everything else.

But most of all the posts just seem to have some problem with female units What if the elves became an all-female race?

I can't see how any of the three reasons above really give grounds for the removal of all the female graphics. And the poll seems to suggest the same. So can we please stop grumbling about this silly little issue?

[turin]

no.

i will not stop grumbling until there is at least an option to remove female images!


really... the main reason i am against female images is there are no definite male units, but there are definite female units, and that just seems wierd. it makes it seem like wesnoth has a 1-2 ratio of males-females.
it would be better if all the units that did not have a chance to be female were obviously male, but they're not. combined with elvish (male) archers already looking effeminate, it makes it so when you look at the screen, it seems as if you are seeing 10 female units and 4 male units, every single time.

As for the reasons Jetryl said people want female units... wesnoth's not (or shouldn't be) that kind of game.

[Dacyn]

a handful of reasons for removing the female counterparts, which are:

who has used arguments 2 and 3? And you forgot my argument, which is that the graphics are a liability for graphics designers.

it's a matter for the artists to decide

So is the whole issue. Why is this in Developer's Discussions?

What if the elves became an all-female race?

I think that would be fine, as long as it doesn't cause the removal of any of the original elf graphics

[Bander]

-Make the female archers look more like the guys. Give them a hat.
-Take the tassels from the female great mage. They don't look "cute" or "powerful"
-Put the female mages hood up, or take the guys hood down. They look too different.

Wesnoth is not a animie that is all about cute girls that wear sexy clothes when they kill people. They don't get beauty sleep after killing trolls all day. They are tough. They don't have to have sculpted bodies. Male units don't.

If wesnoth was an animie, it would be more like Akira or Ninja Scroll than a hentai.

I know that cloth hats were cool in the dark ages, which wesnoth is (not) based on. I feel Illuminated.

AT LEAST OUR FEMALE MAGES ARE WEARING CLOTHES.

Would you rather that they weren't?

[turin]

-Make the female archers look more like the guys. Give them a hat.
-Take the tassels from the female great mage. They don't look "cute" or "powerful"
-Put the female mages hood up, or take the guys hood down. They look too different.[/uote]
agreed.

Wesnoth is not a animie that is all about cute girls that wear sexy clothes when they kill people. They don't get beauty sleep after killing trolls all day. They are tough. They don't have to have sculpted bodies. Male units don't.

disagree... remember Li'sar. always remember Li'sar before making a statement referring to sexuality in wesnoth.

[Bander]

disagree... remember Li'sar. always remember Li'sar before making a statement referring to sexuality in wesnoth.

You are a wise man Turin.

[Jetrel]

really... the main reason i am against female images is there are no definite male units

which I entirely disagree with. Most units look VERY definitely male - no question. Like for example: FEMALES DON"T GROW BEARDS.

(and this even disregards dwarves, we have "definitely male" human units that have beards) Your argument is bonk.

[Burnsaber]

If you ask me, this discussion aint going anywhere. You cant argue about matters of taste. It`s like trying to make a person who doesn`t like, say cheese, to suddenly love cheese by talking him to it. It is just not possible. Someone thinks that male units do not look male enough. I can`t understand this(They are *extremely* clear to me), but on the other hand, i can´t understand people who say that osters are good..

[Ayin]

I don't agree. I prefer oysters to male units.

Huh, what?

[Burnsaber]

I don't agree. I prefer oysters to male units.

Huh, what?

Err.... i mean this discussios is pointless so C

[Dacyn]

this discussios is pointless

True. But also, female units should be removed from the game if they are a liability to graphic designers, which we have little evidence for or against. But it is not a matter of taste.

[telex4]

a handful of reasons for removing the female counterparts, which are:

who has used arguments 2 and 3? And you forgot my argument, which is that the graphics are a liability for graphics designers.

OK, I can't find that in this thread (a quick search of your username in this thread brought up only one short post). What do you mean by it being a liability?

really... the main reason i am against female images is there are no definite male units, but there are definite female units, and that just seems wierd. it makes it seem like wesnoth has a 1-2 ratio of males-females.

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that the objections seem more frightened of women than a rational problem on the behalf of the game Honestly Turin, would you want the males to have larger muscles, beards on every unit and a dirty magazine under their arm?!

All you are saying is: I'd prefer a game that is 100% male than a game that is 66% female. Which is why I joked about an all-female race I couldn't care less if there are more males or females in the game, if some races are effeminate whilst others are macho, or whatever other sexist objections you might throw out. The female-male divide in graphics looks nice, it adds a little diversity and breaks the very masculine grip on most strategy games, and according to the poll for this thread most people like it.

So can you just accept that you're in a minority here and prepare a patch to remove them for "Turin's all-male edition" if you must?

[Dacyn]

OK, I can't find that in this thread (a quick search of your username in this thread brought up only one short post).

Exactly the right one:

The graphics should not be considered "there" until they are ready for 1.0, IMO. Otherwise artists have to work to improve graphics that they don't even like...

My point is that artists are arguing over how to fix the female images for 1.0, when many of them don't even want female images in the game. The female images are then a "liability" for people like turin.

Turin, would you want the males to have larger muscles, beards on every unit and a dirty magazine under their arm?!

He wouldn't. He is saying that female units should only be added once that is true.

All you are saying is: I'd prefer a game that is 100% male than a game that is 66% female.

Nothing he said implies that. He wants 50%: no more, no less.

and according to the poll for this thread

um... the poll for this thread is not about whether female units should remain in the game.

So can you just accept that you're in a minority here

Not until you can find a believable poll which proves that.

[Invisible Philosopher]

100% male

Before this gender attribute was created, most people though the Elvish Shaman (and upgrades) were female. The various monsters (Cockatrice, Sea Serpent, etc), if they have gender, we certainly can't tell what it is. I'm sure there are other images that have ambiguous gender, but I won't mention any in particular because you might disagree about a particular one. Female dwarves are sometimes said to grow beards. The Gryphon Rider is so tiny that you can't tell, and perhaps the same can be said of some of the horse-riders. Princesses, Queens, and Ladies of various sorts are obviously female. Undead seem genderless, at least in appearance.

Even if you disagree with a few of my comments (and I made them carefully), I think you'll realize that Wesnoth is only 100% male if you interpret it that way, and you can interpret it however you like. If you don't want it to be 100% male, then you shouldn't assume all the ambiguous units are male.

(Personally I don't think about my units' genders at all; they're more like tools, toys, tanks, pieces, or whatever to me. After all, Wesnoth is not about realism [people having gender], it's about fun.)