Engineering Units

[finny_01]

I know the developers previously shot down builder units, but this would be diffferent from the Warcraft or Command & Conquer paradigm. What if some sides had engineer units that could:

-build bridges over swamp or shallow water
-build or clear obstacles on some terrain tiles (obstacles would maybe subtract 20% from a unit's base defense in that terrain)
-build or demolish improved fighting positions (add 20% to a unit's base defense for the terrain)
-clear forest tiles, turn them into grassland
-destroy vilages (actually, any unit should be able to do that, but engineers could maybe do it more easily)

I think that a few of those units would be very useful. They would be good for setting up a strong point for a blocking force that just has to hold a critical point(like a ford)
They could make it much easier for reinforcements to get to battle areas if the intervening terrain is difficult.

An engineer should have a lot of hitpoints because they have to sometimes operate in the front lines

I think Dwarf and Human armies would definetly have engineers. Orks and Saurians are probably not sophisticated enough, while Elves probably wouldn't consider them useful(cut down trees? - never!!!).

Remember, throughout most of history warfare was as much an engineering activity as a fighting one (Roman troops probably did more engineering than killing, they built a fort every night before going to bed) [/list]

[Glowing Fish]

Many people have said that Wesnoth is more about small party RPG fights than the type of overly micromanaged fighting you see in too many games.
But, I think that in some scenarios...it would make a lot more involved of a challenge. And I think the basic WML for making units that can change terrain wouldn't be too hard.

[finny_01]

I'd say that wesnoth is more like a combination of RPG and Strategy. An RPG with a large party, or a Tactical wargame with a small army(squad level). I don't think that the engineer unit would change that. It would add to the player's toolbox, allowing them to be more ingenious in solving some tactical problems.

Would a small party of soldiers construct a rope bridge to cross a treacherous river, improve their fighting positions, or use a ladder to storm an enemy held wall? I think yes, so engineering skills should have a place in a small unit game like wesnoth

This probably would make wesnoth more like an RPG than less. And anyway, I think it would make playing more interesting and fun. It would also be an excuse for the campaign designers to make the AI tougher.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Would a small party of soldiers construct a rope bridge to cross a treacherous river, improve their fighting positions,

No. No sensible soldier would trust his life to a bunch of really long potentially flimsy ropes stretched a wide distance.

or use a ladder to storm an enemy held wall?

Not that either. As they climb the ladder, the enemy shoves it away and they topple to the ground. The only useful application of this strategy is with dozens of ladders.

[drachefly]

Nonetheless, both of these devices have been used in actual warfare.

Ladders are a lot harder to tip than you might think, if you put the base a decent distance from the wall. Also, pushing it out requires the defenders getting out of cover, and the offensive archers will be covering the tops of the ladders.

That isn't to say that climbing a ladder wasn't a very dangerous proposition -- but dozens of ladders were used to diminish the number of defenders per attacker at any given moment, not so much to prevent them from being tipped over. The countermeasures for that were different (triangle braces on the ladder feet, for example, would be very effective and could be installed very quickly, even before soldiers got a dangerous distance up the ladder).

[aelius]

All of those things are also implementable in WML. In "Proven by the Sword", the second scenario of the South Guard, the bandits destroy your villages, as an example.

- b.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Ladders are a lot harder to tip than you might think, if you put the base a decent distance from the wall.

Chop them down, shove them sideways, turn them over, there's all kinds of ways to deal with the problem.

[Cuyo Quiz]

Building bridges may be very useful, but i think the engineers would need some more uses than just pass over water.

So, how it works, we click a special kind of attack and ifhe survives for 1-2 turns ( i think 1 turn would work seeing the speed of Wesnoth ) we get a bridge tile under the guy?. I say under because i think the simple way of selecting where to do it would be putting the unit in the hex you want to change.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Engineers could build roads. A road would go on a terrain tile and make that tile behave like grassland as well as whatever it did before. In water, that would mean a bridge; in forest, that would mean a logged-out path; in hills, that would mean a road carved through the hills. All would do the same thing though.

[finny_01]

No. No sensible soldier would trust his life to a bunch of really long potentially flimsy ropes stretched a wide distance.

The U.S. Army has standard techniques for constructing rope bridges over rivers so that only one or two guys have to get wet. Soldiers have to trust their lives to all kinds of suspicious contraptions and contrivances because winning is more important than being safe.

Anyway, engineers could also build up or reduce fortifications. An engineer could create a palisade tile where it stands, provided its suitable terrain (grassland, sand, hills, forest).
Alternatively, it could destroy fortifications or villages in adjacent tiles and turn them into rubble (maybe equivalent to sand)

[Stigmatix]

I think its a great idea. The only problem would be how to trigger the building, without having to add so much to the game like new buttons. Maybe you could make it where if he is in a river, double clicking would make a bridge, if he is on flat land, double clicking would make fort- well there is your problem. This idea would turn maps into huge masses or fortifications and bridges. You'd have to make it less easier to build things, like one build every 5 turns.

[Cuyo Quiz]

Engineers could build roads. A road would go on a terrain tile and make that tile behave like grassland as well as whatever it did before. In water, that would mean a bridge; in forest, that would mean a logged-out path; in hills, that would mean a road carved through the hills. All would do the same thing though.

I think this completes the idea well.

We would need new terrain tiles to show the construction on the terrains. This may be as simple as a tunnel hole for hill and mountains and changing it to road for everything else.

Also, what factions would use it and more importantly, should have it?, should every faction have some sort of engineer?

[finny_01]

I think dwarves and humans/loyalists would probably have the most capable engineers, i.e. ones that could do everything on the engineer's list:

• build bridges and roads, destroy adjacent fortifications and villages, create fortifications

Dwarves may be the only ones capable of doing engineering in mountains and caves.

I would think that elven armies would have a bridge building ability, but wouldn't need roads. Maybe they could destroy/build fortifications. Also, it may be more realistic if they hire mercenary dwarf or human engineers. I just don't see elves using spades and picks to build a rampart when they could just go hide in the woods.

Dragonkind fly and breathe fire, so they probably have the least need for this kind of unit.

Saurians and Orcs aren't terribly sophisticated, so maybe they shouldn't get an engineer unit. If they do, they should probably only deal with constructing fortifications and bridges, but not roads or destroying forts/villages.

Same goes for the outlaws, I would think.

Undead steal their units from other cultures, which means that they may well raise engineers, but on the other hand, does it mesh with their philosophy?. Engineering can be a sophisticated art form, and requires a high order intelligence. The undead typically have only a couple of truly intelligent units in their ranks. Most undead are mindless automatons programmed to kill the enemy. The thinkers that they do have are all into necromancy one way or the other. Engineering is a wholly different discipline, so I find it unlikely that the undead would use such units.

The mermen and nagas have limited resources unless they trade with land-lubbers. Also, they are well adapted to the sea. Still, I can see them putting up defensive nets or something.

As far as the worry that the map will turn into a sprawl of forts and bridges, remember, there is a turn limit, so if you indulge in building too much, you will probably just loose. For MP, if that happens, then it would be like many a real conflict.

[Cuyo Quiz]

Why dwarves would change one of their best defensive terrains to something else?

I remember Jetryl working on special keeps for each faction, so all factions could build forts ( these prolly should take more time ).

[Elvish Leader]

Idea is good, but it would be very hard to teach AI how ot use it.