Some thoughts on unit branching

[turin]

Pre Script: What with the new Multiplayer Development forum, I'm not sure if this is in the right place, so mods, feel free to move it. Also, be warned in advance, this is a rather long post, and doesn't propose any ideas, just gathers them together and explains why they're good.
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IMHO, branching of unit trees is what makes them interesting. They allow for variety in campaigns, and they give you more choices for advanced units in multiplayer. However, my complaint is, not enough races have branching unit trees. This is just my analysis of which races/factions, regardless of other defects, need to have more branching units. Plus, I will at the end make some suggestions.

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Here's the current state of things (correct my if I'm wrong). I'm not going to count the mermen or nagas, because IMHO they need to be held to different standards (they're basically completely different), and the same for the human criminals.

From best to worst:

Elves (counting wose): 3/5 lines branch, although we've been told it may soon be 2/4 (since the Sylph line may be removed).

Lizard-based-creatures (drakes+saurians): 3/6 branch.

Human Loyalists: 3/7 (by my count) branch.

Goblinoids+trolls: 2/6 branch.

Undead (counting DA): 2/7 branch.

Dwarves (counting gryphon): 0/5 branch.

What it means

Elves: IMHO, they don't need any more branching units. They have plenty of interesting variety. Their main units have branches, but their secondaries (woses and scouts) don't. This is how it should be.

Lizard-based-creatures: They could use more main fighting units branching (the saurian warrior and drake fighter come to mind), but overall fairly good job.

Human Loyalists: Decent branching. Their two main fighting units branch, as does their mage unit (#1 rule: ALL MAGE LINES SHOULD BRANCH). Their ranking is deflated by their abundance of specialty units, such as the fencer and HI, which really shouldn't branch anyway.

Goblinoids: Not good. They have two branching units, but they're the scout unit (scout branches come last if at all!) and the secondary fighter. The grunt line should branch! As should, perhaps, the goblin spearman. And maybe the orcish archer.

Undead: They will be much improved once the alternate dark adept advancement (dark sorcerer) is added to the tree (its in CVS but I haven't made the necromancer advance into it yet). The scout/fighter unit branches, as does the main fighter. Overall, good job, especially when Dark Sorcerer is used.

Dwarves: Horrible! No branching units whatsoever! Not much more that can be said.

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My suggestions will consist of unit ideas for alternative branches. Feel free to comment on them, or start a new thread so this one isn't clogged up; this part of my post is brainstorming.

Suggestions:

Elves: No change, they're perfect.

Lizard-based-creatures: The fighter could IMHO use an alternative (as well as a third level), but this is really up to Neo. They're decent already.

Human Loyalists: They're good. As I said, their ranking was deflated by their abundance of special units.

Goblinoids: One of the many alternative advancements proposed for the Grunt would be a good idea. I like the Orcish Brute idea myself. And I also like the fire archer idea, and think it would be good.

Undead: Once I (or someone else) get(s) around to having the necromancer line split, they'll be fine.

Dwarves: Many, many more! My suggestions: Have the Fighter line split at level 2 into.... the dwarvish runecrafter line. I'm dead serious; the runecrafter graphics will need a makeover to fit with the fighter ones, but it IMHO makes perfect sense. He just drops the axe and turns to learning what those little symbols on his armor actually mean. Also, the thunderer could use a branch, as has been suggested, into a line that uses a fire attack. I like Sangel's idea (thunderer -> thunderguard/stormguard OR -> fireguard/dragonguard.)

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Conclusion: Everybody work on the orcs and dwarves. The other races don't really need more alternates (although they might need level 3s), but the dwarves and orcs (in that order) do. I've gathered together all the suggestions I've heard for those two races; now, we need graphics and stats.

[Darkmoon]

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Elves (counting wose): 3/5 lines branch, although we've been told it may soon be 2/4 (since the Sylph line may be removed).
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Nooo... dont remove Sylph line, I am in love with one of them. That would break my heart, ohh... the stress I will live under till someone will say that Sylphs will stay....

[Jetrel]

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Elves (counting wose): 3/5 lines branch, although we've been told it may soon be 2/4 (since the Sylph line may be removed).
....

Nooo... dont remove Sylph line, I am in love with one of them. That would break my heart, ohh... the stress I will live under till someone will say that Sylphs will stay....

The sylph is not leaving the game, she's getting better graphics and hanging out with a more sophisticated bunch of elves:

She is leaving the "Wood Elves" for the eventually-to-be-included "High Elves".

[Breeblebox]

Is this a surreptitious preview of the High Elves Jetryl? I don't believe I've seen the whole retinue like this before.

They look great, especially whoever the heavily armoured horseman is...

Anywho, unit branching seems like one of the prime areas in which Wesnoth can improve replayability, varied gameplay, and player involvement. It's refreshing to see the factions compared from this alternate point of view.

I agree the Knalgans are well short in this regard, but it seems they are undergoing a faction wide rethink, so I reserve my opinion 'till that's complete. The Northeners could definitely do with some branching, and I'll add my chit for the Orcish Brute/ Orcish Razer (random fire archer name) combination.... plus at least one other unnamed proposal.

[Darkmoon]

Hey... they stay... I am all happy now!!!




About that archer and,.. err... spear elf(left one)... their legs look kind as if baby was trying to stand up((or about to go squat))... they look kinda like tiny puffy on the face children.. perhpas more like Hobbits that worked out heavily.. hmm. Or even a bit dwarvish(these on the horses...)


About their legs, if I can make suggestion... perhaps giving them a position where one leg appears to be slightly leading?


((but of course,.. I aint seeing straight without glasses and at 3 am in the morning... ))

[Assasin]

The archer looks like he has to poop. I can just picture his face=

[Elvish_Pillager]

Goblinoids: One of the many alternative advancements proposed for the Grunt would be a good idea. I like the Orcish Brute idea myself. And I also like the fire archer idea, and think it would be good.

Which Orcish Brute idea do you like?

Dwarves: Many, many more! My suggestions: Have the Fighter line split at level 2 into.... the dwarvish runecrafter line. I'm dead serious; the runecrafter graphics will need a makeover to fit with the fighter ones, but it IMHO makes perfect sense. He just drops the axe and turns to learning what those little symbols on his armor actually mean. Also, the thunderer could use a branch, as has been suggested, into a line that uses a fire attack. I like Sangel's idea (thunderer -> thunderguard/stormguard OR -> fireguard/dragonguard.)

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Conclusion: Everybody work on the orcs and dwarves. The other races don't really need more alternates (although they might need level 3s), but the dwarves and orcs (in that order) do. I've gathered together all the suggestions I've heard for those two races; now, we need graphics and stats.

I support this movement greatly, and in my usual role as 'gratuitous stat inventor', I have suggestions:

Runecrafter: 43 HP, 14-2 melee. 7-2 magical ranged 'tremor'. Normal dwarf resistances. 80 XP.
Runemaster: 60 HP, 17-2 magical melee. 7-4 magical ranged 'tremor'.
(Arcanister: 72 HP, 19-2 magical melee, 9-5 magical ranged 'tremor'.)

Thunderguard = current Thunderguard + Tough dwarf resistances
Stormguard = current Dragonguard + Tough dwarf resistances

Flameguard: 39 HP, Normal dwarf resistances, 16-2 fire ranged, 110 XP
Dragonguard: 44 HP, 21-2 fire Ranged Marksman

And finally, a new idea, to upgrade from the Guardsman:
Dwarvish Tactician
Leadership
36 HP
6-3 melee
6-1 ranged
This brance stops at level 2. However, this branch also has no graphics...

[Terpor]

Turin wrote:

Goblinoids: One of the many alternative advancements proposed for the Grunt would be a good idea. I like the Orcish Brute idea myself. And I also like the fire archer idea, and think it would be good.

I absolutely agree with your idea of branching, as a mather of fact it makes a lot of sense for all the factions to have a "main" type of unit with at least two options of advancement.
But even if not everybody agrees with this (I see reasons to keep the factions as diferents as posible to the others, while respecting the balance of the game) I still would support the idea of a branch in the Grunt line. They are the basis of the orcs and at least one more option on their tree would made a lot of sense. Some options could be:

Orcish Mauler: Maul (Impact 16-2) HP 56 Advances to Nil
or
Orcish Raver: Sword (Blade 7-4) HP 52
that advances to...
Orcish Wardancer: Sword (Blade 12-5) HP 82

One question about this, could a unit advance to another unit with a diferent type of movement? For example, orcishfoot to elusivefoot.

[Elvish_Pillager]

(Blade 12-5) HP 82

Um... that's more melee damage than any unit in the game, and more HP than any normal level 3 unit, even the Warlord.

[turin]

One question about this, could a unit advance to another unit with a diferent type of movement? For example, orcishfoot to elusivefoot.

Yes, but IMHO its generally a bad idea.

For the Wardancer, I would say 11-5, ~65 HP (its powerful but weak, if you see what I mean).

[Terpor]

turin wrote

For the Wardancer, I would say 11-5, ~65 HP

Well, as EP noted, the idea is to have an alternative to the Warlord with even more mele damage, but no ranged attack. 11-5 would be just 3 more damage points than the Warlord. That for 15 HP less... hum... depends on the exp cost. One option could be to keep 12-5 (8 more damage) and cut the HP to 65 or 62, or even less.

In any case, I think that an advanced orcish unit without a ranged attack would made a lot of sense.

[drachefly]

In any case, I think that an advanced orcish unit without melee damage would made a lot of sense.

s/melee/ranged/
??

[Terpor]

In any case, I think that an advanced orcish unit without melee damage would made a lot of sense.

s/melee/ranged/
??

Oops, my fault. I've already edited the original. Yeah, I mean without a ranged attack