How to kill Dwarf guards efficiently?

Ankka · Post by **Ankka** » April 6th, 2005, 1:16 pm

I have had those as a problem in some MP games I played. The enemy bought a couple of them in the beginning and some more in the future.

While I'm trying to get them killed, they get some berserks and fighters... and I have no chance anymore.

With dwarves having no really big weaknesses, on small maps they're rather hard to beat, really. Just try for instance on morituri 2v2.

So any ideas how to do it effectively?

Arne Deprez · Post by **Arne Deprez** » April 6th, 2005, 4:07 pm

dwarf guards can you defeat with poison. Poison still does 8 hp.

Berserkers can you attack with ghosts (level 2). At night they drain 2 hp by every hit, Berserkers do 2 hp by every hit. I think.

martenzo · Post by **martenzo** » April 6th, 2005, 4:24 pm

make them attack you, if the guards attack you, thy don't get the defense bonus.

Arne Deprez · Post by **Arne Deprez** » April 6th, 2005, 6:05 pm

martenzo wrote:make them attack you, if the guards attack you, thy don't get the defense bonus.

yes, but you need a unit that is good from both melee and distance becouse the dwarvish guard can choose wich attack he want to use

Ankka · Post by **Ankka** » April 6th, 2005, 6:33 pm

Arne Deprez wrote:dwarf guards can you defeat with poison. Poison still does 8 hp.

The problem is that loyalists, for instance, don't have poison.

Well, I guess I'll just have to go and learn it the hard way, by playing

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » April 6th, 2005, 6:59 pm

The basic premise of this thread is a fallacy.

You do not kill Dwarvish Guardsmen. If they attack you, sure, you'll hurt the, and maybe you kill them then. But you don't attack them when they're high on HP. That's just foolish. You use superior mobility, attack their forces when they're unguarded, or sieze loads of villages.

philippe · Post by **philippe** » April 6th, 2005, 7:48 pm

the best way to handle dwarvish guardmen in a bottleneck while you are loyalist is according to me mages.2 a 3 mages supported by white mages can easily weaken guardsmen defences

Ankka · Post by **Ankka** » April 7th, 2005, 1:32 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:The basic premise of this thread is a fallacy.

You do not kill Dwarvish Guardsmen. If they attack you, sure, you'll hurt the, and maybe you kill them then. But you don't attack them when they're high on HP. That's just foolish. You use superior mobility, attack their forces when they're unguarded, or sieze loads of villages.

The problem is that in small maps you can't get around them...

Three or so will totally block half of the area in morituri 2v2 for instance. You can't get around them.

Assasin · Post by **Assasin** » April 7th, 2005, 5:41 pm

I guess your SOL then. I haven't had to face them yet, so I don't know that much about them, except that they are great defenders. I would try using magical units to kill them, weaken him with a couple of mages, then come in for the kill with whatever else you got.

Ankka · Post by **Ankka** » April 7th, 2005, 6:36 pm

Assasin wrote:I guess your SOL then. I haven't had to face them yet, so I don't know that much about them, except that they are great defenders. I would try using magical units to kill them, weaken him with a couple of mages, then come in for the kill with whatever else you got.

The problem is that when I have it killed with a few mages, some berserks and dwarf fighters have arrived... and my mages are dead.

Post by **Darth Fool** » April 7th, 2005, 6:54 pm

Ankka wrote:
Assasin wrote:I guess your SOL then. I haven't had to face them yet, so I don't know that much about them, except that they are great defenders. I would try using magical units to kill them, weaken him with a couple of mages, then come in for the kill with whatever else you got.
The problem is that when I have it killed with a few mages, some berserks and dwarf fighters have arrived... and my mages are dead.

Well, by then, your horseman and heavy infantry should also have arrived to wipe out the berserks and dwarf fighters...

but seriously.

It is always going to be the case that some maps are better for some factions than others. Dwarves will always be better off in small maps where as in large maps they are going to be weaker. If you want a small map where Dwarves get owned, it probably needs to be all water, swamp or similarly bad terrain for dwarves on defense. Wesnoth will never be balanced where all factions are equally good on all maps because the only way to achieve that is by making all factions identical.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » April 7th, 2005, 7:48 pm

Ankka wrote:morituri 2v2 for instance.

Morituri is very unbalanced; Don't play on it, don't use it for examples.

Post by **Noy** » April 7th, 2005, 9:15 pm

So mort SHOULDN'T be used as an example. funny that its played more than any other MP map, by far. So really its not indicative about what MP players play and therefore shouldn't be used as an example... right.

Best thing to do is to burn them with mages, or archers... or as someone said above... ignore them. Even on mort, you can attack other targets and exploit other weaknesses.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » April 7th, 2005, 9:27 pm

Noy wrote:funny that its played more than any other MP map, by far.

Funny you should say that; when I'm on the server, hardly anyone plays on Morituri.

It's not even in the official Wesnoth release, which ought (IMO) to be the maps used to balance units on.

Maybe I've been successful at convincing everybody who has a schedule similar to mine how unbalanced it is, so they don't play it much anymore. However, this is an unlikely theory.

For the sake of example, let us say that over half of all multiplayer games were played on the map "1Cg2", and someone complained that Guardsmen were too weak because they weren't any good at slaughtering player 2's leader. Would this be a valid argument?

Post by **Dragonking** » April 7th, 2005, 10:33 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote: Funny you should say that; when I'm on the server, hardly anyone plays on Morituri.

Well.. it depends. I think Noy is talking about 2v2 ver of Mourituri which is very good (one of best and really one of most popular - when someone spend 16h on server he can check it) , cause 1v1 version gives BIG advantage for the first player - that's why it is unbalanced - in 2v2 this problem rader doesn't exist.

Elvish Pillager wrote:It's not even in the official Wesnoth release, which ought (IMO) to be the maps used to balance units on.

Maps which are included to relase aren't balanced. Or maybe you think it is opposite? Well... when you look at "3 rivers"...

Elvish Pillager wrote: Maybe I've been successful at convincing everybody who has a schedule similar to mine how unbalanced it is, so they don't play it much anymore. However, this is an unlikely theory.

n/c

Elvish Pillager wrote: For the sake of example, let us say that over half of all multiplayer games were played on the map "1Cg2", and someone complained that Guardsmen were too weak because they weren't any good at slaughtering player 2's leader. Would this be a valid argument?

Of course bad argument.