Orc Shaman

[romnajin]

I the wiki there are three units listed; the novice, elder, and normal orc shaman. I think that they would be cool if made into a line, novice, normal, elder, the novice would be left as is, but it seems weird to have three different units at first level that are primarily the same. I assume that they are from SOTBE, but, if so, I have not played far enough to have seen them.

[turin]

Yeah, they're from SOTBE.

They should either A), be made into a line, with novice -> normal -> elder, or B), made the same unit, and distinguished with descriptions.

[romnajin]

I like the novice normal elder line, but they are all just mixing around of the others stats; they all have the same hp, but their attack values are mixed around. I would like to see that line in the game; because right now the orcs don't have any magic.

[mpolo]

In SotBE, they're quite annoying units, because they are like tissue paper in battle, and they are "required to keep alive" units. Worse, in their first scenario, you have to rush in to save them, and they have to survive a goodly number of turns with pitiful protection from the AI until you get there. I think they have a less than 50-50 chance of surviving until you get there. They definately need an upgrade path!

[benj]

In SotBE, they're quite annoying units, because they are like tissue paper in battle, and they are "required to keep alive" units. Worse, in their first scenario, you have to rush in to save them, and they have to survive a goodly number of turns with pitiful protection from the AI until you get there. I think they have a less than 50-50 chance of surviving until you get there. They definately need an upgrade path!

Yes, they are bad fighters and this is what I wanted. My purpose is that making the player obligated to protect them makes strategy more interesting. SotBE has a reputation of being hard partly because a lot of strategy is needed. About the first scenario, there are tricks that help them to survive.

Regarding the shamans, there are three units because as they are three unique characters, they need to be visualy distinct.

Cheers,
Benjamin

[turin]

In SotBE, they're quite annoying units, because they are like tissue paper in battle, and they are "required to keep alive" units. Worse, in their first scenario, you have to rush in to save them, and they have to survive a goodly number of turns with pitiful protection from the AI until you get there. I think they have a less than 50-50 chance of surviving until you get there. They definately need an upgrade path!

Yes, they are bad fighters and this is what I wanted. My purpose is that making the player obligated to protect them makes strategy more interesting. SotBE has a reputation of being hard partly because a lot of strategy is needed. About the first scenario, there are tricks that help them to survive.

Um... actually, its because the scenarios are basically impossible. Any scenario where you have a 50% chance to die at the very beginning is unbalanced, not just hard.

Regarding the shamans, there are three units because as they are three unique characters, they need to be visualy distinct.

OK, but why are they all the same level? it seems odd to have a novice and an elder shaman be just as powerful.

[benj]

Um... actually, its because the scenarios are basically impossible. Any scenario where you have a 50% chance to die at the very beginning is unbalanced, not just hard.

As you said, this is at the very beginning so no big deal. Scenarios are expected to be lost and at least this will teach that shamans are fragile. Considering that the AI is now much better, perhaps I will add something to raise shamans survival probability, but I want the player to rely only on the shamans and his skill to survive the two first turns, not the whole horde and experience gained.

OK, but why are they all the same level? it seems odd to have a novice and an elder shaman be just as powerful.

Well, the novice and elder distinction is just because I had no other idea. If someone has a better suggestion to name them, I'm open to it. I'm not opposed to several different levels, but I don't want the stats to change a lot.

Cheers,
Benjamin

[romnajin]

I just noticed them in the wiki, and I thought that it might be nice for them to be included in mp, and given a 3 level line.

[quartex]

The point is that these three units were never intended to be included in the multiplayer game. They are custom units created for the SOTBE campaign and are made intentionally weak for specific scenario reasons. Normally I would suggest these three orc shaman units be removed from the general wesnoth distro, and just included with this campaign. Of course, SOTBE is a official wesnoth campaign, so this doesn't make sense.

But I think that campaign units like these should either be removed from the wesnoth unit list, or we should have a seperate unit list of custom hero units. I think Konrad, Haldric, Oweac and these Orcish Shaman are all special campaign heroes, which aren't meant to be judged on the same scale as other Wesnoth units, so they should be removed from the general list and put on a special list for "custom hero units used in the official campaigns". That way people won't be trying to balance then with other units and won't think that they are supposed to be included in the multiplayer factions.

[turin]

Sounds good to me, although I'm not sure exactly how it would work.

Oh, and gwiti (the initiate line) is also a campaign-specific hero, although I use him in EI too.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Oh, and gwiti (the initiate line) is also a campaign-specific hero, although I use him in EI too.

He's used in SotBE too, last I checked...

EDIT: and TRoW, too, of course. HttT is the only official campaign that doesn't use "gwiti's" unit.

[romnajin]

Which one did it originate in?

[Arthelorn]

The Dark Hordes

[romnajin]

That's what I thought, because, it is the main character!