1.20 balance change for Core Eras and Units made by the Balance Team

[Skyend]

This is the official forum thread for balance testing of 1.20 Core Eras and Units.

We will discuss our balance change ideas internally and release updated versions of the add-on for you to test and provide feedback. Please note that these updates are for testing purposes, and the results are not final. We will continue updating as needed, and looking forward for your ideas and testing.

In response to some concerns regarding the 1.18 unit balance adjustments, this update uses the 1.16 stats as a foundation for Default Era.
We highly value your input as we work on this updated version. Please share your feedback on the following aspects:

• Single-player and multiplayer modes (no split, meaning units will remain consistent across modes)
• Competitive balance for 1v1, 2v2, etc. (aiming for overall faction balance)
• Enjoyable gameplay and more freedom in leader choices (understanding this may slightly reduce balance in 1v1)
• Compatibility with UMC (User-Made Content) to avoid breaking mods
• Respect for lore and unit identity
• (any other aspect you can think about)

Please play with our add-on going forward over Default Era to share the spirit (also since it will be much better than 1.18) ~ SkyEnd

Just some Ladder data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Summary Default

Spoiler:

Changes comparing to the 1.16 Default Era.

Drakes
- Drake Burner + line: 30% on shallow water
- Drake Fighter + line: 30% on shallow water
- Drake Enforcer: no balancing change, but swapped pierce and impact attack that it's in line with Drake Trasher

Knalgan Alliance
- Trapper: +1 melee dmg, -> 5x4
- Footpad (test): Ladder Version -> change meele into blade + 1 dmg -> 5x2 balde
- Gryphon Rider: cost to 23 gold (as it is in 1.18)
- Dwarvish Guardsman: 6x1 randge (as it is in 1.18 / Ladder)
- Dwarvish Thunderer (test): 16 gold, -1 hp -> 33 hp

Loyalists
- Bowman: 5x2 melee (as it is in 1.18 / Ladder)
- Horseman (test): 23 gold, -2 hp -> 36 hp, 48 xp 100% -> 34/27 xp 70%
- Heavy Infantryman (line): from 10% to 0% impact resistance

Northerners
- Orcish Grunt (test): -1 hp -> 37 hp
- Orcish Archer (test): 13 gold, 5x3 pierce ranged
- Troll Whelp (line): from 0% to -10% impact resistance

Rebels
- Elvish Shaman (test): 3x2 ranged

Undead
- Ghoul + line (test): balde 10; pierce 10; impact 30; fire 10; cold 20; arcane 20
- Blood Bat: 53 xp

Changelog:
Version 0.1.5
- Poacher: back to, 33 hp
- Ghoul (test): back to, balde 10; pierce 30; impact 0; fire 10; cold 20; arcane 20

Version 0.1.4
- Troll (race): from 0% to -10% impact resistance
- Heavy Infantryman (line): from 10% to 0% impact resistance

Version 0.1.3
- Cavalryman: 17 gold, blade 30%
- Orcish Archer: -5x3 ranged pierce, 13 gold
- Blood Bat: 53 xp

Version 0.1.2
- Horseman: only -2 hp -> 36 hp, but xp nerf 48 100%, 34/27 70%
- Orcish Grunt: -1 hp -> 37 hp
- Poacher: +1 hp -> 34 hp

Version 0.1.1
- Renamed units test -> units showcase, a scenario displaying all changed units
- Ghoul (test): balde 10; pierce 10; impact 30; fire 10; cold 20; arcane 20
- Drake Enforcer: no balancing change, but swapped pierce and impact attack that it's in line with Drake Trasher
- Drake Burner and Fighter line (level 2+): 30% on shallow water too

Version 0.1.0
- Footpad: Ladder Version -> change meele into blade + 1 dmg -> 5x2 balde
- Bowman: 5x2 melee (as it is in 1.18 / Ladder)
- Dwarvish Guradsman: 6x1 randge (as it is in 1.18 / Ladder)
- Drake Burner: 30% on shallow water
- Drake Fighter: 30% on shallow water
- Gryphon: cost to 23 gold (as it is in 1.18)
- Cavalryman: 17 gold, blade 20%
- Trapper: +1 melee dmg, -> 5x4
- Dwarvish Thunderer: 16 gold, -1 hp -> 33 hp
- Horseman: 23 gold, but -3 hp -> 35 hp
- Elvish Shaman: 3x2 ranged

[KameRamen]

First of all, I would like to express my appreciation for this positive endeavor. And I fully agree with the decision to base the 1.16 stats and support this direction. I have tried version 0.0.4 for feedback and it is adequate and in very good condition. Many issues have been resolved. Personally, I was very impressed, especially with the changes made in 1.18 to the elves' attacks (which also affected my add-on), which have been reverted to the old state.

We all know that the drastic balance changes for 1.18 were very controversial and the issues are still dividing the community to this day. This has had a negative impact not only on the original intention of balancing for players and creators, but also on the conflict between users. I believe that this has never happened before and should be stopped as soon as possible and we should move on to more constructive game development.

It is my opinion that the most realistic option is to return to the status quo of 1.16 - a release that is, for the most part, very balanced and continues the legacy of previous developers. Therefore, to reiterate, I view this direction as ideal and completely support this.

[Skyend]

Sorry if I raised confusion, we have not yet done anything.
Besides me putting the add-on with 1.16 era together with help, changes will be made and not all 1.18 changes will be reverted.

Currently this is only 1.16 stats with animation of 1.18. Any new changes will be added to the changelog as usually.

[ForestDragon]

Looks promising. I fully support the idea of using 1.16 as a new baseline.

1.18 was far too extreme and controversial of an update compared to the previous 8 stable versions - the most egregious changes being the arcane rework, the elf changes, and the very strange xp changes (like 43/46 for lvl2 orc crossbow/mermaid enchantress respectively, rogue getting increase from 70 to 80, dark sorcerer from 90 to 110, archmage xp to lvl4 getting reduced from 220 to 150, etc.)

1.16 stats make for a much more reliable baseline to work on top of for improving the game's balance.

[Roge_Tebnelok]

Fully support 1.16 baseline as well, for reasons explained by others. The addon in particular will also allow new players, who joined after 1.18 came out, to learn what the gameplay was like before, see and feel the differences, and everyone to express what they really think about stats after a fresh comparison and prepare themselves to the future stats and potentially affect them by bringing them up to balance team's attention with clearer picture in mind without need of installing another version, .

[Skyend]

Fully support 1.16 baseline as well, for reasons explained by others. The addon in particular will also allow new players, who joined after 1.18 came out, to learn what the gameplay was like before, see and feel the differences, and everyone to express what they really think about stats after a fresh comparison and prepare themselves to the future stats and potentially affect them by bringing them up to balance team's attention with clearer picture in mind without need of installing another version, .

That's a good point.

[Skyend]

For why I ask for adding the best and most important balance change or not (Ladder variation of Footpad)

This a the key element for balancing default era imho.
I know it's not a small change to what non ladder player are used to. (sprite change)
But it still keeps it's ranged impact attack.

The reason is that KA is a lot stronger than UD in 1v1.
Although it's worse against the other factions.

Having this change helps with every balance here.

KA >> UD (they will still be stronger than UD, but it's a lot more balanced)
other faction, beside Rebels > KA

Vs Rebels, pads aren't too much used there, because of strong Elvish Fighter dealing a huge dmg bonus -> other units as DF or Ulf do see more play.

Overall this is a great buff to Knalgan Aliance.

When it was introduced in ladder I was hyped and loved the change ever since. It's a lot more fun to play with footpad, there.

There was a game on ladder where I though that they reverted them back to default, and therefore I didn't even recruited them at all, that's how much worse default pads feel in most match-ups. ~SkyEnd

#makefootpadandknalgangreat

[Mirion147]

This change may go a long way for balance but it causes some other problems.

The lore of the poor folk taking up clubs and becoming proficient enough to be a level 1 unit while not being of means to have any real metalwork done (sword/dagger) until they are able to finally have access to a mace at level 2.

While this would undoubtedly change the balance of campaigns like Liberty, and other UMC works, I'm not against changes specifically for this reason. That being said, it is a note that should be added to a list even if it's not a deal breaker for me.

Then there's the issue of RIPLIB. Ruffian (impact), Footpad (blade), Outlaw (impact), Fugitive (impact).
Ruffian into footpad works because of thug, similar to spearman into Swordsman. but Swordsman doesn't go back into halberdier. Footpad with blade going into Outlaw with impact doesn't work with the whole unit line.

So my question is, what makes this better against other factions? What alternatives work, while less effectively from a balance perspective, still fit with lore and level sequencing?

If all that is really happening is that undead are getting destroyed, why not just reduce damage of the footpad, or even make it a higher damage 1 strike attack?

[EDIT]

If there is a need for a non impact damage type from footpad, why not add pierce as a secondary attack type to the footpad's melee attack?

[Skyend]

I wouldn't push that hard for it if there where an alternative.

[Mechanical]

I support changing Footpad's damage type, as this change has been thoroughly tested in high level play over the years. In my opinion, the optimal solution is to make a separate unit and keep the old Footpad in the core for not to harm existing content in the mainline and addons.

I don't see any problems with this solution, and I will now explain why.

1. I see no problems with the artwork, as I can change a club to an axe at all unit levels on all sprites, including animations. It's not a difficult task for me that won't take more than a week of real time.

2. I don't see a problem with RIPLIB since:
- Ruffian still has a direct improvement in the form of Thug;
- Even now, Footpad contains RIPLIB relative to Ruffian because it has negative physical resistances.
- From this, it is obvious that Footpad is a side branch that can have any changes towards level zero.

3. I don't see a lore problem, since:
- The sprite and portrait of the current Footpad already contains metal elements;
- It's very easy for a medieval peasant to get an axe, literally every house has one;
- Other level 1 bandits also have metal weapons (notably the Thief and Poacher have a dagger)

4. I also like it when balance changes get some sort of lore customization, an entourage. To achieve this effect, we could, for example, name the new Footpad “Knalgan Footpad” and add a line to the description along the lines of “since Footpads play an extremely important role in the Alliance, they are armed with light axes, which are plentiful in the dwarven army.”. This is just a rough example, but I think we should do something like this, and then the damage change would look very organic and thematically driven.

[Mirion147]

I support changing Footpad's damage type, as this change has been thoroughly tested in high level play over the years. In my opinion, the optimal solution is to make a separate unit and keep the old Footpad in the core for not to harm existing content in the mainline and addons.

This begins the separation of sp and mp. A dangerous and poorly chosen road, this would confuse new players greatly because if new content is added to mainline it would have players using the same unit but with different uses and attack values. Let alone just switching to mp and dealing with different units.

I don't see any problems with this solution, and I will now explain why.

1. I see no problems with the artwork, as I can change a club to an axe at all unit levels on all sprites, including animations. It's not a difficult task for me that won't take more than a week of real time.

I guess if you'd rather focus on this instead of the countless other issues that exist regarding artwork in mainline, that's fine. It's your choice.

2. I don't see a problem with RIPLIB since:
- Ruffian still has a direct improvement in the form of Thug;
- Even now, Footpad contains RIPLIB relative to Ruffian because it has negative physical resistances.
- From this, it is obvious that Footpad is a side branch that can have any changes towards level zero.

None of this counters the actual RIPLIB issue described.

3. I don't see a lore problem, since:
- The sprite and portrait of the current Footpad already contains metal elements;
- It's very easy for a medieval peasant to get an axe, literally every house has one;
- Other level 1 bandits also have metal weapons (notably the Thief and Poacher have a dagger)

Sticking a metal knob on the end of a stick and putting a nail through is a very different thing than crafting a sword. How do you plan on introducing the axe to the portrait?
Thief and poachers are different in lore. Thieves have obviously stolen their weapons, while poachers have knives already, to gut the animals they poach.
I admit though that I did not consider an axe, so having an axe could make more sense, but I would not assume that all houses have one.

[Skyend]

I support changing Footpad's damage type, as this change has been thoroughly tested in high level play over the years. In my opinion, the optimal solution is to make a separate unit and keep the old Footpad in the core for not to harm existing content in the mainline and addons.

Yeah, that's probably the best.


@Mirion147
For why shall it be blade over pierce?
Unlike pierce there aren't many units with negative blade resistance or those had bad impact resistance anyway and vice versa.
This being said the goal is it to deal an equal amount of dmg in any match-up, to not break them.

[Mirion147]

Using both impact and pierce in the same attack means that the only thing changing is the damage stat, you would need no other art, there would be no issue with riplib, and there would be no lore problems. That's why I suggested it.

Blade in this situation is a balance stat that does not hold true to the lore, or the current setup of the unit. I find it unreasonable that a faction with only 2 impact attack units needs to trade one of the the 3 impact attacks in for a blade attack. This would give KA 7 blade units vs 2 impact units, 1 of which is ranged and 1 of which is melee.

I suggested reducing the damage of DF hammer attack and increasing DF axe attack. You said this would kill rebels, yet you want to give footpad blade with a 1 damage buff. The only unit that has resists is wose which has 40% impact resist. So 4x2 club attack does 2x2 damage, instead of (with blade attack) 5x2 damage. That's a 6 damage buff, vs what i suggested of a 3 damage buff. That is also a larger buff than adding pierce to the footpad damage type as the only negative resist to pierce is the scout, which is only -20% vs the 40% difference of the wose.

[dwarftough]

I actually like the idea of introducing Ladder Era-like Footpad as a new line of units. That'll be the best of both worlds! SP and UMC that uses Footpads left untouched, MP Default Era gets stats tested by time. The only potential downside of blade Footpad in this case is new art, but if we get one, that'll be nice.

Answering some concerns regarding SP/MP split, this is in no way SP/MP split because it will be two different units, with different sprites, different attacks, different name and description. The new axe-guys can find their place in subsequent SP content too.

[Dalas120]

I share some trepidations with Mirion about this change hinting at a SP/MP split - two units with different damage type but otherwise-identical stats, one that only appears in scenarios and one that mostly only appears in 1v1?

However, upon further thought, this sort of thing is not without precedent. Walking Corpses / Soulless already come in a dozen variations, Giant Scorpions are clearly closely related to Sand Scuttlers, Soldier Ants vs Fire Ants, the various horses, etc. I'm ok with a new "Axepad" (or something) unit, as long as we make it clear with the sprite and description that this is a variant of the Footpad - not a separately themed unit with its own identity.

Alternatively, I think that changing the Footpad himself to use blade wouldn't cause severe issues for SP/UMC as long as the Outlaw and Fugitive were left intact. In that case, I'd also support a new alternative Woodcutter/Lumberjack advancement for the Footpad, to 1) maintain RIPLPIB and 2) add variety to bandit-only recall lists in SP/UMC campaigns.