The need for a Balance Team

[Skyend]

@Balance Team MAKE ATF OR DUNE WILL STAY IN DEFAULT ERA!!!
Will be fun doing it don't you thing so guys? Also having a new era to core, how cool!

[Roge_Tebnelok]

1) Ask a couple specific people what they think.

Who, for example? And why so few? How can it be possible for them to express the opinion of the wider community?

If I provide names, then people will just start arguing over that too.

If you don't, won't they start arguing over that too? It's basically the same as making the changes but leaving most of the community unaware of them.

My understanding is that the list of candidates in the first post are essentially the short-list of people who would be generally acceptable to have on the balancing team. Is that not the case?

Not quite, iirc it was just the people who volunteered, no further filtering has been done at the moment besides an informal poll conducted on a sample size of WMG members and even then that didn't remove candidates from the list, just added a bit of extra info.

Yeah, basically.

[Pentarctagon]

If you don't, won't they start arguing over that too? It's basically the same as making the changes but leaving most of the community unaware of them.

If people are going to get into pointless arguments regardless of what I do, then I don't consider it to be my problem to deal with.

[Mirion147]

I, for one, don't really think it's necessary to disclose how the decisions were made. Whatever reasons are considered are the reasons of those involved and that's that. There is no less of an opportunity to make your voice heard or to propose PR's to change issues you see. If anything, it makes it easier to get your decision through. It sounds to me like people just want to have something else to complain about.

[Skyend]

Guys it's normal to ask your friends and other highly involved person about their opinion/information. UMC- voting is also bias, since there are only UMC ppl on that server...

Overall much better than the idea I had for him. (#rolling dices and put matto at spot 7)

Just let him do his job, we can still give feedback or convince our friends that will be choose for the balance team.
I wouldn't be surprised if many will seek their opinion anyway.

[Roge_Tebnelok]

I, for one, don't really think it's necessary to disclose how the decisions were made. Whatever reasons are considered are the reasons of those involved and that's that. There is no less of an opportunity to make your voice heard or to propose PR's to change issues you see. If anything, it makes it easier to get your decision through. It sounds to me like people just want to have something else to complain about.

That's exactly what is necessary, to disclose what decisions were made and how, otherwise for some of those involved these reasons are considered reasons but for the rest they are not. PR isn't as good for that because currently it takes just one reviewer to veto the change, no matter if the reasons for veto are explained or not. It's not in any way easier, and who said easier way is the better one? People don't need even more something to complain about if they want to complain just for the sake of complaining, and that's not something that is happening here.

Guys it's normal to ask your friends and other highly involved person about their opinion/information. UMC- voting is also bias, since there are only UMC ppl on that server...

Asking for opinions is one thing, making important decisions based on these opinions is another, but doing so after telling everyone that these decisions are going to be made based on someone's opinions but also that this someone isn't going to be disclosed is similar to a few members making decisions with the rest of the community unaware of how are these decisions are made. UMC-voting is biased, but it provides with at least some info, which was gathered in a disclosed way, on how well the candidates would suit the team and how well they would be supported by that part of the community, and it's not used as basis for the decision who should join the team and who shouldn't, in fact, one of the reasons why this thread was created in the first place is to encourage people not from UMC to express their opinion on this matter.

Just let him do his job, we can still give feedback or convince our friends that will be choose for the balance team.
I wouldn't be surprised if many will seek their opinion anyway.

You're saying it like it's already decided who will join the team and if will it be created in the first place, which I don't think is the case yet. Even if it is, what's the point of allowing people to express their opinion if they won't matter in the end because the decision is going to be made by a few undisclosed members of the community for undisclosed reasons? And what's more important, what's the point of the team consisting of the people selected not by a wider community for their qualification, but by a few undisclosed members of the community for undisclosed reasons, who basicaly control the whole process and the team itself?

[Tezereth]

If people are going to get into pointless arguments regardless of what I do, then I don't consider it to be my problem to deal with.

I think theses arguments would very much NOT be pointless, especially for a big matter such as this one. And given your role, you can't just say it "isn't your problem".

[Pentarctagon]

The person ultimately making the decision will be me, because I'm the project lead and that's part of my job. And the fact that me saying that I'm asking a few people for advice has become a point of contention is an excellent example for why I will absolutely never go into any further detail about it.

[gnombat]

The person ultimately making the decision will be me, because I'm the project lead and that's part of my job. And the fact that me saying that I'm asking a few people for advice has become a point of contention is an excellent example for why I will absolutely never go into any further detail about it.

It's not really asking people for advice that's the point of contention, it's the private discussions.

https://producingoss.com/en/setting-tone.html#avoid-private-discussions
https://www.theopensourceway.org/the_open_source_way-guidebook-2.0.html#_culture_of_transparency

[Roge_Tebnelok]

If people are going to get into pointless arguments regardless of what I do, then I don't consider it to be my problem to deal with.

I think theses arguments would very much NOT be pointless, especially for a big matter such as this one. And given your role, you can't just say it "isn't your problem".

Exactly, if you disclose the names there could be no need in argument in the first place, and even if there will be an argument, it will be better than one about how well you suit your role. Just making this discussion you're going to have with these couple specific people public would increase the chances of the decision you make to be accepted.

The person ultimately making the decision will be me, because I'm the project lead and that's part of my job. And the fact that me saying that I'm asking a few people for advice has become a point of contention is an excellent example for why I will absolutely never go into any further detail about it.

It's not really asking people for advice that's the point of contention, it's the private discussions.

Exactly.

[Mirion147]

I think you guys need to let the people who have their positions use their authority to do their jobs the way they want to do them.

[Roge_Tebnelok]

I think you guys need to let the people who have their positions use their authority to do their jobs the way they want to do them.

We don't need that, what we need is to make sure the work is done as it should be done, without hiding the information on how the decisions are made, which is needed to avoid controversy and creating issues, and for these decisions to be not contrary to the opinion of the wider community.

[Mirion147]

You clearly don't trust the people in charge, and that's fine. The problem is, they are in charge lol

[Pentarctagon]

To state the obvious: people will usually give different responses to what they think about other people they need to interact with on a regular basis when asked in private vs in public. So, once again, no, I'm not giving out names, and I'm not going to ask those people for their opinions in public. And if you don't like that, then too bad.

[shevegen]

I have no really strong pro or con opinion on the subject matter at hand, plus I am also of the Grandpa age so I'll let the youngsters duke it out. What I am, however had, and possibly others are as well, curious, is how this will affect balance.

I guess the future will tell, but perhaps if possible, some progress update can be given every now and then, perhaps half a year or something like that (I don't know the schedule enough to suggest which time frame may be useful, but something like half a year to a year for a short summary of balance-related changes may be useful to read, also for casual folks, like people who knew wesnoth but weren't paying attention due to other issues, including reallife).