The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
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Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
Ah, that's certainly it. Will fix.Mirion147 wrote: ↑October 19th, 2024, 4:06 am So, I'm pretty sure it was on the latest version for when I downloaded it (my system says 2.0.6) I noticed it mainly in the water areas, though not all of them. Just walking to 13.9 doesn't allow me to undo. But the next turn I can. Maybe it has to do with the message said to adoring fans?
Will do.
I'd like to keep it on the goblins, but I'll remove it from the orcs and Wesnothians to cut down on the lag.
Works for me.
You know, now that you've got me thinking about this I think I should be able to work around Delfador cheese with a couple changes. Maybe I can have it require just Delfador after all.Mirion147 wrote: ↑October 19th, 2024, 4:06 am You could consider asking the player to bring both Deoran, and Delfador, and then you only need one more random unit who could potentially join you in the puzzle but be left behind during the mirror world segment, maybe saying some type of "woah, you guys disappeared" or something when you get back. At the end of the day all I was looking for was some form of bonus for the units that were brought, or at least speaking parts from them at some point.
Will do.Mirion147 wrote: ↑October 19th, 2024, 4:06 am I would consider myself to be your average player level player. I pay attention to weapon type and terrain, I check hp and tod, but I'm not checking all the stats all the time, I'm not making sure this is 100% the best option, I'm not setting up 3 turn long strategies. If I can beat it without breaking a sweat, I think it's worth at least a bit of attention in the balance department.
I'll see what I can do here.Mirion147 wrote: ↑October 19th, 2024, 4:06 am I don't know, there's not even a response from the king about her being "captured" by the orcs. and when the orcs first mention they have her, idk, it just felt random. Regardless of why she's actually with the orcs, I felt like they needed to imply to Garard what they wanted, fun, gold, or just to watch him squeal while he struggled to get her back. I could be wrong here.
Yikes! That's a serious list of bugs there. Many thanks for the reports - I'll get to work fixing these.
To help with the bugfixes, do you have replays including them? (for the bugs that show up in replays)
Good idea; will do.
Did you feel this was an issue, or was it just something that you needed to play around?
Thanks for bringing this up. I'll delay spell selection until the undead drakes are sighted, thus hopefully giving the player enough information to make an informed choice.
I'd originally set this up to prevent Delfador from soloing Eldred - Polymorph can get him in close, and Shield + Enthrall + L4 Fireball lets him survive the armies and kill Eldred in a couple rounds (because Eldred would idiotically stand and fight instead of letting his army take care of the lone Delfador).
Did this feel unfair when you encountered it? And if so, do you have any suggestions for helping to fix the issue?
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Spannerbag
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Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
Just a random thought: when a scenario starts and the player chooses Delf's spells for that session do you think it would add to the game enjoyment if the player could subsequently amend (re-select) Delf's spells but for a fairly high xp cost?
Arguably permanent changes would remain (e.g. deselecting blizzard would not undo terrain changes?) but temporary changes (e.g. deselecting familiar) would be (I guess) easy to undo/remove?
Apologies if this has been considered/suggested before.
Cheers,
-- Spannerbag
Arguably permanent changes would remain (e.g. deselecting blizzard would not undo terrain changes?) but temporary changes (e.g. deselecting familiar) would be (I guess) easy to undo/remove?
Apologies if this has been considered/suggested before.
Cheers,
-- Spannerbag
Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
The Deceivers Gambit II: Default Difficulty
The Great River:
Story:
Dialog:
Gameplay:
Art:
Overview:
Enemies: Goblins/Saurians
Objectives: Move here without being caught. Keep anyone from leaving
Weldyn Court:
Dialog:
Art:
Ruins of Saurgrath:
Dialog:
Gameplay:
Map:
Overview:
Field Hospital:
Dialog:
Omaranth/Houses of the Dead:
Dialog:
Gameplay:
Map:
Overview:
Elensefar Outskirts:
Dialog:
Clan Blakckcrest:
Gameplay:
Map:
Overview:
Revelry:
Dialog:
Art:
The Traitor:
Dialog:
Overview:
Revelry Revisited:
Dialog:
Gameplay:
Overview:
The King is Dead:
Dialog:
Long live the Queen:
Dialog:
Gameplay:
Overview:
Campaign overview:
Spells overview:
Both campaigns collective overview:
[EDIT]
Also, looking forward to what you are thinking on the Delfador/wose scenario!
The Great River:
Story:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Enemies: Goblins/Saurians
Objectives: Move here without being caught. Keep anyone from leaving
Spoiler:
Dialog:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Dialog:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Dialog:
Spoiler:
Dialog:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Dialog:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Dialog:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Dialog:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Dialog:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Dialog:
Spoiler:
Dialog:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
[EDIT]
Also, looking forward to what you are thinking on the Delfador/wose scenario!
Take a look at the Era of the Future!
Current factions: The Welkin, The Brungar, and The Nordhris!
^This is old news lol but I don't care^
New news -> Up the River Bork Campaign!
Current factions: The Welkin, The Brungar, and The Nordhris!
^This is old news lol but I don't care^
New news -> Up the River Bork Campaign!
Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
The campaign has been updated again already which is impressive.
I'm also on Wesnoth 1.181.
Saves for bugs:
I'm surprised Delfador can win solo as he needs to survive multiple turns without all his defensive spells active and without getting surrounded or just getting smeared across the ground by a lancer.
I'ld be inclined to tweak it by making it more obvious / triggered more specifically / always triggered early.
For anti-Delfador duels Eldred, the retreat trigger could be more specific by including a check for turn counter, AI losses or how many units the player has threatening Eldred, maybe with dialogue where Eldred mocks Delfador for attempting a heroic duel and points out that he has an army.
For a more minor tweak, maybe leave the village closer to Eldred and switch from a windmill to make it more obvious and reduce the distance Eldred moves from the player's lines.
Alternately, Eldred could move to the village early, with the justification that he's losing his nerve and is considering outright fleeing, to make the difficulty more consistent.
I'm also on Wesnoth 1.181.
Saves for bugs:
Spoiler:
Only a minor issue. I'd favour removing attacks where the ghosts might die since the extra ghosts are already a pattern break from the first (the wraith is recruited automatically but if the second ghost dies attacking Delfador the player might assume it wasn't recruitable) and the ghosts have unique lines and a significant role in the scenario.Did you feel this was an issue, or was it just something that you needed to play around?
In my case, attacking Eldred early was just stacking the deck as I planned for a Royal Guard with Panacea to kill him next turn. I wasn't expecting the AI to actually flee - competently - with their leader (I didn't even register the windmill village as a village). The extra difficulty of hunting Eldred down very strongly encourages setting up a flank with an assassin or a one turn kill.I'd originally set this up to prevent Delfador from soloing Eldred - Polymorph can get him in close, and Shield + Enthrall + L4 Fireball lets him survive the armies and kill Eldred in a couple rounds (because Eldred would idiotically stand and fight instead of letting his army take care of the lone Delfador).
Did this feel unfair when you encountered it? And if so, do you have any suggestions for helping to fix the issue?
I'm surprised Delfador can win solo as he needs to survive multiple turns without all his defensive spells active and without getting surrounded or just getting smeared across the ground by a lancer.
I'ld be inclined to tweak it by making it more obvious / triggered more specifically / always triggered early.
For anti-Delfador duels Eldred, the retreat trigger could be more specific by including a check for turn counter, AI losses or how many units the player has threatening Eldred, maybe with dialogue where Eldred mocks Delfador for attempting a heroic duel and points out that he has an army.
For a more minor tweak, maybe leave the village closer to Eldred and switch from a windmill to make it more obvious and reduce the distance Eldred moves from the player's lines.
Alternately, Eldred could move to the village early, with the justification that he's losing his nerve and is considering outright fleeing, to make the difficulty more consistent.
Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
Overall, very good campaign. There is only some minor issues.
In last scenario (Long Live the Queen) is some important tactics that may be good to recommend to player. First, Delfador need assault fast before enemy get all troops in group (I try many times this scenario and I win it only when I leave second fortification when I still have over 100 gold and use polymorph). It would be good if Delfador say in dialog somehow that they need attack fast before Elder get troops in formation.
Secondly it would be good to hint somehow player to use polymorph (I gain hint of it on this forum).
The lack of epilogue is interesting choice. It is good for experienced Wesnoth players, but for new players it may be confusing. It may cause they think that end of TDG is end of Wesnoth too. This is important, because story continue from TSG (new tutorial campaign) to TDG. Because it, many new players play TDG in their second campaign.
This problem can be solved by adding some [story] recommends to next campaigns for new players. Example "play Freedom to see how Wesnoth's civil war affects common people" or "play Rise of Wesnoth to see how Kingdom of Wesnoth has been founded". Because only new players need recommends, it need be only easy and maybe normal difficulties.
I have played Wesnoth couple of years. Still when I play first TSG and then TDG the epic end and lack of epilogue and then text "The end" in place where is two times was "continue in ..." cause me feel that it was end of story. Especially when TSG have [story] epilogue before Garald come.
It is good that TDG end it's own story line but it would be good to give new players recommends what campaigns to play next so the end of TDG don't feel end of Wesnoth.
In last scenario (Long Live the Queen) is some important tactics that may be good to recommend to player. First, Delfador need assault fast before enemy get all troops in group (I try many times this scenario and I win it only when I leave second fortification when I still have over 100 gold and use polymorph). It would be good if Delfador say in dialog somehow that they need attack fast before Elder get troops in formation.
Secondly it would be good to hint somehow player to use polymorph (I gain hint of it on this forum).
The lack of epilogue is interesting choice. It is good for experienced Wesnoth players, but for new players it may be confusing. It may cause they think that end of TDG is end of Wesnoth too. This is important, because story continue from TSG (new tutorial campaign) to TDG. Because it, many new players play TDG in their second campaign.
This problem can be solved by adding some [story] recommends to next campaigns for new players. Example "play Freedom to see how Wesnoth's civil war affects common people" or "play Rise of Wesnoth to see how Kingdom of Wesnoth has been founded". Because only new players need recommends, it need be only easy and maybe normal difficulties.
I have played Wesnoth couple of years. Still when I play first TSG and then TDG the epic end and lack of epilogue and then text "The end" in place where is two times was "continue in ..." cause me feel that it was end of story. Especially when TSG have [story] epilogue before Garald come.
It is good that TDG end it's own story line but it would be good to give new players recommends what campaigns to play next so the end of TDG don't feel end of Wesnoth.
Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
----The Great River:
M: - the crown prince Eldred > the Crown Prince Eldred
M: - King's > king's
D: Done!
M: - Does Delfador become a bit less flashy? I guess you do see some remnants of flashiness here, but the stark contrast is very stark, if it's intended it's fine though, he still feels like the same character beyond this scenario.
D: I'd intended him to be a bit less immature in the second half, though still not nearly the wise old man we see in HttT.
M: - A bit weird for Delfador to break the 4th wall saying "turn"
D: I agree it's a bit strange, but I feel it's very important to be clear to the player exactly how the mechanics work. I'll try out moving this from Delfador to a narrator so it's less fourth-wall-breaking.
M: - Also, idk what's in TSG in terms of vision, but you may want to indicate to the player how they can determine any enemy unit's vision in a tooltip.
D: Added a proper tooltip, plus a visual indicator on non-nightmare difficulties!
M: - Same dialog that played in part I about the orcish shaman is in part II
M: - Delfador says "we have to hurry, the fog is starting to clear" then I kill the beacon that turn and he says "and just in time too: the fog was starting to clear.
M: - the way onwards remains clear. Now onwards > the way forward remains clear. Now, onwards!
D: Fixed, thanks.
M: - Does anything from the first part of the campaign impact the second part of the campaign? (I guess later on yea, Deoran, but I meant any choices or anything)
D: Just your units; sadly no branching.
M: - Delfador is pretty useless without levitate here, almost feel like you should just hard assign levitate or at least strongly urge the player to take it.
D: Funnily enough I never take levitate! IMO Polymorph is the best. Generally I'd like to give players
M: - The way that the map is set up, there's literally no way for me to defeat the goblin, let alone the saurian before they reach the western edge of the map.
D: Sorry, I'm not clear which goblins/saurians you mean exactly. Could you send in a replay so I can take a look?
With the strategies I use the scenario is pretty trivial, but because I designed the scenario I'm blind to the way that others might approach it.
----Weldyn Court:
M: - I put my trust in steel not seers. Except he does trust Delfador...?
D: The intent was that Delfador is a warrior like Garard, not a mystic giving strange predictions. I take it that didn't come through?
M: - trust him better than my own son > trust him more than my own son
D: Done.
----Ruins of Saurgrath:
M: - Delfador seems a bit too gung-ho on simply stopping the saurian support rather than figuring out why it is taking place, which seemed to be there mission. It isn't terrible, just feels somewhat out of place.
D: I'll try and improve this, thanks.
M: after a 2nd attempt, I clearly kill 1 of the units, and he fades out, then you see him pop up and run away.
D: Can you give the specific line of dialogue or a replay? I'm not able to reproduce this.
M: - different markings that the others > different markings than the others
M: - If you do skip the rendezvous, the rendezvous objective is gone, but the map marker remains. Additionally, I don't get to select spells?
D: Will fix, thanks.
M: - Severe lack of villages. Fair that I forgot about oasis' at first, but I still feel like it's low, just not as bad. Maybe 1 or 2 more?
D: Early finish bonus makes a big difference in Omaranth, but it's probably fine to add 1 or 2 more here. Will do.
M: - Once you survive the first 12 turns or so, the scenario is pretty much just slog through the muck and take out the enemy leaders who are sitting by themselves cause they're out of gold. Goes from extra hard to especially easy, with not a lot of strategy involved.
M: and the lack of strategy in the middle (and in my case end) of the scenario.
D: Ok, I think I know what's doing on here. When I play on Deadly, I need to spend a lot of turns carefully getting into position to assassinate all 3 matriarchs as rapidly as possible, or I get demolished by the counterattack. It sounds like maybe you killed 1 matriarch, wiped out the counterattack (possible to do b/c Normal difficulty), then basically wandered around an empty swamp - is that right?
If so sounds like I should decrease enemy gold, but increase income and/or ramp up income over time?
----Field Hospital:
M: - Sceptre - Is the goal scepter or sceptre? ("scepter" is used in Ring of Swords)
D: Should be 'Sceptre"; thanks for catching that.
M: - I'm not sure that the Scepter of Fire could be considered the Scepter of the Wesfolk. Considering it was requested by haldric (or haldric the 2nd? I don't remember). I suppose the ruby is of the wesfolk, but still. I'm not sure I track that one, personally.
D: That's a good point. Do you have any suggestions? A new player won't know any of the backstory, so to make things easier to follow ideally something that has either the word "Sceptre" or "Fire".
----Omaranth:
M: - I have trusted thus far a sign of good faith > I'm honestly not sure what the sentence is supposed to say? > I have trusted you thus far as a sign of good faith?
D: Oops, yes that's the intended sentence. Will fix.
M: - Hard to get behind any reasoning that females would be able to go somewhere reverent that males could not go, considering their positions.
D: My understanding is that while males are in charge within the village, females are dominant everywhere else, particularly when it comes to interaction and war with other species. Thus, I felt it made sense for only the females/matriarchs to meet with their "Great One" - and it give a nice opportunity to show some cultural differences. Is that incongruous with their portrayal in other campaigns?
M: Took me to turn 14 to realize that I could recruit lol
M: My biggest issue with the first scenario was knowing I could recruit with the rogue/assassin Lynryn (or however you spell her name, sorry lol).
D: I'll add an objective note about it
----Houses of the Dead:
M: - After I destroy the necromancer, does the map re-shroud?
D: As-in, does your vision increase back to normal? Yes, it should be.
M: - A good map, nothing to complain about, classic Dalas style map. Sometimes you just gotta appreciate a standard map because the standard has been set so high.
M: I really enjoyed the bit with the ghosts, I thought it was super well done and really fun. Also, it was nice to see that Delfador had a moral limit to power and that, while he enjoyed the limelight, he was not simply seeking power above all else.
D:
----Elensefar Outskirts:
M: - Give unto to the orcs > Give unto the orcs
D: Fixed, thanks.
----Clan Blackcrest:
M: its majesty* - The dragon has already been considered a she by the saurian > her majesty*
M: - Chief Ghuvog says youse the first time, would be fair to have him say "I'll teach youse your proper place!"
M: - Every time I tried to lead soldiers cross the river > across the river (or 'cross)
D: Fixed!
M: - Not a HUGE fan of Delfador being a copymage but at least this one fits better within the limitations of likelihood and interesting possibility.
D: Yeah, my goal was to show that he's learning from his experiences (rather than pulling spells out of thin air), but I agree that I could perhaps make things a little less direct...
M: - Completely unnecessary, but would be kinda cute, would be cool to see Lynyan say how much gold she's gotten from Delfador (or would've gotten since she's loyal and actually hasn't gotten any gold from me, since I'm not even recalling her lol)
D: Hah, sounds like a fun idea.
M: - No dialog from killing first orcish leader (shaman), by player
M: - No dialog when saurian kills first orc leader (warrior 9.
.
M: - No dialog when re-orc'd saurian kills rebelling saurian leader.
M: - No dialog when killing first saurian leader
M: - No dialog when Ghuvog is attacked, by player or by the kings knights
D: Adding all of these might be a bit excessive, but I can certainly add some.
M: - your lord Garard > your Lord Garard
D: Here I meant it not as a title but rather as a description - I think lowercase works?
M: - Thematically I think it would be better for orcish sides to each have 1 loyal orcish shaman or at the very least limit their recruit number to 1 or 2 per side (including leader).
M: - I really hate the way the shaman is going lol. but I'm pretty sure that's beyond the scope of this campaign.
D: Yeah, I am planning to make it a little more clear that Clan Blackcrest is an exception rather than the rule when it comes to Shamans. In TDG I think they're really useful (gameplay-wise) because they counter Delfador, but I definitely don't want to subvert their lore into "just another warrior orc".
M: - I would suggest having the king (who wants to end this war decisively) focus his forces on taking out the warlord, not the saurians. All his knights went east after crossing the river lol
M: I think if the king had target location Ghuvog set higher than capture villages or maybe his aggression is just set a touch too high (though I get where you're going for here). I think having him go off on his own and the knights follow recklessly getting into fights they shouldn't is great,
D: Ok, will do.
M: - Looks good, Is this the same map as will be used in HttT?
D: Yeah, that's the plan! At first I tried to copy the original HttT map, but that one's just so poor that I felt I needed to change it.
M: - A bit unsure about the desert mountains 11.1 but it's not the end of the world
D: No worries, I can change that.
----Revelry:
M: - Scepter > Sceptre
M: - Delfador > Delfador. (spoken by Deoran).
D: Will fix, thanks.
M: - I'm assuming Asheviere will get a portrait at some point?
D: Yeah, the plan is to request one from LordBob.
M: - I'm not sure I understand what Deoran is trying to accomplish. If the prince is hurt (why isn't anyone trying to get him to the healers tent or something?) and telling you that he has been attacked, the king isn't irrationally heading to war, he's simply choosing a poor strategy for retaliation. But Deoran seems to imply that the very idea of fighting again is the problem, not the king's choice in tactics. Delfador's response helps to imply that it's fighting in general that is the problem, so it fits the current understanding I'm having, but I don't feel that Deoran or Delfador would be as pacifistic in manner.
D: Hmm... The intent was that Garard is ordering the execution of his brother with only partial information, while Deoran wants to slow down, sober up, and know the whole picture.
Really I'm ok with any cutscene that makes Deoran sound rational and probably correct (i.e. the player knows Delfador is making the wrong decision), but also doesn't make Garard sound like an idiot. Maybe Garard feels that if they wait Arand is going to get away? Not sure. This is supposed to be the big moment where Delfador really messes up, and becomes personally responsible for so much of the chaos that he later works to end.
Could you help with some dialogue suggestions here? I've revised this cutscene so many times over the past few months that my brain is pretty fried.
----The Traitor:
M: - No dialog the first time you kill another human.
M: - No dialog the first time you use or kill someone with lightning (though I understand delfador isn't feeling particularly showboaty at the moment).
M: - No dialog when any of your knights fall
D: I'll get some of these added, thanks.
M: - for many months now have I have suspected > for many months now have I suspected
D: Will fix, thanks.
----Revelry, Revisited:
M: - I will say, I prefer the original version of Eldred leading a battalion of troops into battle and them turning on the king in the heat of the battle, the orcs joining forces with them against garard. I think TDG's story has more of a tv show feel (which isn't bad at all), there's more drama. But the classic story appeals to me more.
D: I understand the appeal of the original. At this point it's too late to make major revisions, but I do intend to stay more faithful to original stories in the future.
M: - king Garard's death! > King Garard's death!
M: - Hail king Eldred > Hail King Eldred
M: - Hail, long live king Eldred > King Eldred
D: Fixed, thanks.
M: - "Deoran says "any who wish to flee, now is your last chance" but I have already sent all my units to the east, and only Deoran remains.
D: Will fix.
M: - Selfish ask that the "Stoneskins" be renamed the "Stonefoot" clan, absolutely not necessary, for multiple reasons
D: I like the name "Stonefoot", but unfortunately "Stoneskin" is already used in AD.
M: - "I can recruit more soldiers to aid in the fight" too bad I have 0 gold XD
D: Ah, you grabbed a keep before picking up the gold pile? I'll make this message different if the player has low gold.
----The King is Dead:
M: - false king Eldred does nothing > false King Eldred/false king, Eldred, does nothing.
D: Will do.
M: - Kaylan says "o' great Delfador" and Delfador responds "I'm not 'the Great' anymore". I would switch Kaylan's message to "o' Delfador the great*"
D: I get where you're coming from, but I feel like that's a little on the nose? Maybe it's just me.
----Long Live the Queen:
M: - The capitol > The capital(?) is this a typo or are you referencing the castle or something?
M: - "The text contains invalid Pango markup:" ?
D: Fixed, thanks.
M: -The lich blood potion segment really makes it seem like cataclysm is required. Maybe just make it automatically selected?
D: Nah, I don't think it's even the best choice for this part, at least on Nightmare. But I'm glad that you've found it to be a viable option!
M: I really enjoyed this scenario, even though I just saveloaded the crap out of it, I let Delfador kill like 40 units, if not more. (Delfador kill counter where?) I thought this was a sufficient climax, well done.
D: Very glad to hear it, thanks!
----Overview:
M: I understand they're together, but newer players may see this as a potentially difficult obstacle to overcome. I think that both parts need to have their own difficulty arcs, and while it makes sense for part 2 to have the higher difficulty level, it should still arc from a bit of an easier standing point, while part one should end on a bit of a harder standing point. (I feel like I'm starting to not make sense now so if you're not seeing my point then please let me know lol).
D: To be honest, I hadn't intended Part II to start off dramatically more difficult than Part I. I think this is an issue with improper scaling across the different difficulty levels. I'll need to play through again on Normal and rebalance.
If you still have them, I'd much appreciate replays showing the easiness of "Ring of Swords" and the difficulty of "The Great River" plus "Ruins of Saurgrath"!
M: - the crown prince Eldred > the Crown Prince Eldred
M: - King's > king's
D: Done!
M: - Does Delfador become a bit less flashy? I guess you do see some remnants of flashiness here, but the stark contrast is very stark, if it's intended it's fine though, he still feels like the same character beyond this scenario.
D: I'd intended him to be a bit less immature in the second half, though still not nearly the wise old man we see in HttT.
M: - A bit weird for Delfador to break the 4th wall saying "turn"
D: I agree it's a bit strange, but I feel it's very important to be clear to the player exactly how the mechanics work. I'll try out moving this from Delfador to a narrator so it's less fourth-wall-breaking.
M: - Also, idk what's in TSG in terms of vision, but you may want to indicate to the player how they can determine any enemy unit's vision in a tooltip.
D: Added a proper tooltip, plus a visual indicator on non-nightmare difficulties!
M: - Same dialog that played in part I about the orcish shaman is in part II
M: - Delfador says "we have to hurry, the fog is starting to clear" then I kill the beacon that turn and he says "and just in time too: the fog was starting to clear.
M: - the way onwards remains clear. Now onwards > the way forward remains clear. Now, onwards!
D: Fixed, thanks.
M: - Does anything from the first part of the campaign impact the second part of the campaign? (I guess later on yea, Deoran, but I meant any choices or anything)
D: Just your units; sadly no branching.
M: - Delfador is pretty useless without levitate here, almost feel like you should just hard assign levitate or at least strongly urge the player to take it.
D: Funnily enough I never take levitate! IMO Polymorph is the best. Generally I'd like to give players
M: - The way that the map is set up, there's literally no way for me to defeat the goblin, let alone the saurian before they reach the western edge of the map.
D: Sorry, I'm not clear which goblins/saurians you mean exactly. Could you send in a replay so I can take a look?
With the strategies I use the scenario is pretty trivial, but because I designed the scenario I'm blind to the way that others might approach it.
----Weldyn Court:
M: - I put my trust in steel not seers. Except he does trust Delfador...?
D: The intent was that Delfador is a warrior like Garard, not a mystic giving strange predictions. I take it that didn't come through?
M: - trust him better than my own son > trust him more than my own son
D: Done.
----Ruins of Saurgrath:
M: - Delfador seems a bit too gung-ho on simply stopping the saurian support rather than figuring out why it is taking place, which seemed to be there mission. It isn't terrible, just feels somewhat out of place.
D: I'll try and improve this, thanks.
M: after a 2nd attempt, I clearly kill 1 of the units, and he fades out, then you see him pop up and run away.
D: Can you give the specific line of dialogue or a replay? I'm not able to reproduce this.
M: - different markings that the others > different markings than the others
M: - If you do skip the rendezvous, the rendezvous objective is gone, but the map marker remains. Additionally, I don't get to select spells?
D: Will fix, thanks.
M: - Severe lack of villages. Fair that I forgot about oasis' at first, but I still feel like it's low, just not as bad. Maybe 1 or 2 more?
D: Early finish bonus makes a big difference in Omaranth, but it's probably fine to add 1 or 2 more here. Will do.
M: - Once you survive the first 12 turns or so, the scenario is pretty much just slog through the muck and take out the enemy leaders who are sitting by themselves cause they're out of gold. Goes from extra hard to especially easy, with not a lot of strategy involved.
M: and the lack of strategy in the middle (and in my case end) of the scenario.
D: Ok, I think I know what's doing on here. When I play on Deadly, I need to spend a lot of turns carefully getting into position to assassinate all 3 matriarchs as rapidly as possible, or I get demolished by the counterattack. It sounds like maybe you killed 1 matriarch, wiped out the counterattack (possible to do b/c Normal difficulty), then basically wandered around an empty swamp - is that right?
If so sounds like I should decrease enemy gold, but increase income and/or ramp up income over time?
----Field Hospital:
M: - Sceptre - Is the goal scepter or sceptre? ("scepter" is used in Ring of Swords)
D: Should be 'Sceptre"; thanks for catching that.
M: - I'm not sure that the Scepter of Fire could be considered the Scepter of the Wesfolk. Considering it was requested by haldric (or haldric the 2nd? I don't remember). I suppose the ruby is of the wesfolk, but still. I'm not sure I track that one, personally.
D: That's a good point. Do you have any suggestions? A new player won't know any of the backstory, so to make things easier to follow ideally something that has either the word "Sceptre" or "Fire".
----Omaranth:
M: - I have trusted thus far a sign of good faith > I'm honestly not sure what the sentence is supposed to say? > I have trusted you thus far as a sign of good faith?
D: Oops, yes that's the intended sentence. Will fix.
M: - Hard to get behind any reasoning that females would be able to go somewhere reverent that males could not go, considering their positions.
D: My understanding is that while males are in charge within the village, females are dominant everywhere else, particularly when it comes to interaction and war with other species. Thus, I felt it made sense for only the females/matriarchs to meet with their "Great One" - and it give a nice opportunity to show some cultural differences. Is that incongruous with their portrayal in other campaigns?
M: Took me to turn 14 to realize that I could recruit lol
M: My biggest issue with the first scenario was knowing I could recruit with the rogue/assassin Lynryn (or however you spell her name, sorry lol).
D: I'll add an objective note about it
----Houses of the Dead:
M: - After I destroy the necromancer, does the map re-shroud?
D: As-in, does your vision increase back to normal? Yes, it should be.
M: - A good map, nothing to complain about, classic Dalas style map. Sometimes you just gotta appreciate a standard map because the standard has been set so high.
M: I really enjoyed the bit with the ghosts, I thought it was super well done and really fun. Also, it was nice to see that Delfador had a moral limit to power and that, while he enjoyed the limelight, he was not simply seeking power above all else.
D:
----Elensefar Outskirts:
M: - Give unto to the orcs > Give unto the orcs
D: Fixed, thanks.
----Clan Blackcrest:
M: its majesty* - The dragon has already been considered a she by the saurian > her majesty*
M: - Chief Ghuvog says youse the first time, would be fair to have him say "I'll teach youse your proper place!"
M: - Every time I tried to lead soldiers cross the river > across the river (or 'cross)
D: Fixed!
M: - Not a HUGE fan of Delfador being a copymage but at least this one fits better within the limitations of likelihood and interesting possibility.
D: Yeah, my goal was to show that he's learning from his experiences (rather than pulling spells out of thin air), but I agree that I could perhaps make things a little less direct...
M: - Completely unnecessary, but would be kinda cute, would be cool to see Lynyan say how much gold she's gotten from Delfador (or would've gotten since she's loyal and actually hasn't gotten any gold from me, since I'm not even recalling her lol)
D: Hah, sounds like a fun idea.
M: - No dialog from killing first orcish leader (shaman), by player
M: - No dialog when saurian kills first orc leader (warrior 9.
.M: - No dialog when re-orc'd saurian kills rebelling saurian leader.
M: - No dialog when killing first saurian leader
M: - No dialog when Ghuvog is attacked, by player or by the kings knights
D: Adding all of these might be a bit excessive, but I can certainly add some.
M: - your lord Garard > your Lord Garard
D: Here I meant it not as a title but rather as a description - I think lowercase works?
M: - Thematically I think it would be better for orcish sides to each have 1 loyal orcish shaman or at the very least limit their recruit number to 1 or 2 per side (including leader).
M: - I really hate the way the shaman is going lol. but I'm pretty sure that's beyond the scope of this campaign.
D: Yeah, I am planning to make it a little more clear that Clan Blackcrest is an exception rather than the rule when it comes to Shamans. In TDG I think they're really useful (gameplay-wise) because they counter Delfador, but I definitely don't want to subvert their lore into "just another warrior orc".
M: - I would suggest having the king (who wants to end this war decisively) focus his forces on taking out the warlord, not the saurians. All his knights went east after crossing the river lol
M: I think if the king had target location Ghuvog set higher than capture villages or maybe his aggression is just set a touch too high (though I get where you're going for here). I think having him go off on his own and the knights follow recklessly getting into fights they shouldn't is great,
D: Ok, will do.
M: - Looks good, Is this the same map as will be used in HttT?
D: Yeah, that's the plan! At first I tried to copy the original HttT map, but that one's just so poor that I felt I needed to change it.
M: - A bit unsure about the desert mountains 11.1 but it's not the end of the world
D: No worries, I can change that.
----Revelry:
M: - Scepter > Sceptre
M: - Delfador > Delfador. (spoken by Deoran).
D: Will fix, thanks.
M: - I'm assuming Asheviere will get a portrait at some point?
D: Yeah, the plan is to request one from LordBob.
M: - I'm not sure I understand what Deoran is trying to accomplish. If the prince is hurt (why isn't anyone trying to get him to the healers tent or something?) and telling you that he has been attacked, the king isn't irrationally heading to war, he's simply choosing a poor strategy for retaliation. But Deoran seems to imply that the very idea of fighting again is the problem, not the king's choice in tactics. Delfador's response helps to imply that it's fighting in general that is the problem, so it fits the current understanding I'm having, but I don't feel that Deoran or Delfador would be as pacifistic in manner.
D: Hmm... The intent was that Garard is ordering the execution of his brother with only partial information, while Deoran wants to slow down, sober up, and know the whole picture.
Really I'm ok with any cutscene that makes Deoran sound rational and probably correct (i.e. the player knows Delfador is making the wrong decision), but also doesn't make Garard sound like an idiot. Maybe Garard feels that if they wait Arand is going to get away? Not sure. This is supposed to be the big moment where Delfador really messes up, and becomes personally responsible for so much of the chaos that he later works to end.
Could you help with some dialogue suggestions here? I've revised this cutscene so many times over the past few months that my brain is pretty fried.
----The Traitor:
M: - No dialog the first time you kill another human.
M: - No dialog the first time you use or kill someone with lightning (though I understand delfador isn't feeling particularly showboaty at the moment).
M: - No dialog when any of your knights fall
D: I'll get some of these added, thanks.
M: - for many months now have I have suspected > for many months now have I suspected
D: Will fix, thanks.
----Revelry, Revisited:
M: - I will say, I prefer the original version of Eldred leading a battalion of troops into battle and them turning on the king in the heat of the battle, the orcs joining forces with them against garard. I think TDG's story has more of a tv show feel (which isn't bad at all), there's more drama. But the classic story appeals to me more.
D: I understand the appeal of the original. At this point it's too late to make major revisions, but I do intend to stay more faithful to original stories in the future.
M: - king Garard's death! > King Garard's death!
M: - Hail king Eldred > Hail King Eldred
M: - Hail, long live king Eldred > King Eldred
D: Fixed, thanks.
M: - "Deoran says "any who wish to flee, now is your last chance" but I have already sent all my units to the east, and only Deoran remains.
D: Will fix.
M: - Selfish ask that the "Stoneskins" be renamed the "Stonefoot" clan, absolutely not necessary, for multiple reasons
D: I like the name "Stonefoot", but unfortunately "Stoneskin" is already used in AD.
M: - "I can recruit more soldiers to aid in the fight" too bad I have 0 gold XD
D: Ah, you grabbed a keep before picking up the gold pile? I'll make this message different if the player has low gold.
----The King is Dead:
M: - false king Eldred does nothing > false King Eldred/false king, Eldred, does nothing.
D: Will do.
M: - Kaylan says "o' great Delfador" and Delfador responds "I'm not 'the Great' anymore". I would switch Kaylan's message to "o' Delfador the great*"
D: I get where you're coming from, but I feel like that's a little on the nose? Maybe it's just me.
----Long Live the Queen:
M: - The capitol > The capital(?) is this a typo or are you referencing the castle or something?
M: - "The text contains invalid Pango markup:" ?
D: Fixed, thanks.
M: -The lich blood potion segment really makes it seem like cataclysm is required. Maybe just make it automatically selected?
D: Nah, I don't think it's even the best choice for this part, at least on Nightmare. But I'm glad that you've found it to be a viable option!
M: I really enjoyed this scenario, even though I just saveloaded the crap out of it, I let Delfador kill like 40 units, if not more. (Delfador kill counter where?) I thought this was a sufficient climax, well done.
D: Very glad to hear it, thanks!
----Overview:
M: I understand they're together, but newer players may see this as a potentially difficult obstacle to overcome. I think that both parts need to have their own difficulty arcs, and while it makes sense for part 2 to have the higher difficulty level, it should still arc from a bit of an easier standing point, while part one should end on a bit of a harder standing point. (I feel like I'm starting to not make sense now so if you're not seeing my point then please let me know lol).
D: To be honest, I hadn't intended Part II to start off dramatically more difficult than Part I. I think this is an issue with improper scaling across the different difficulty levels. I'll need to play through again on Normal and rebalance.
If you still have them, I'd much appreciate replays showing the easiness of "Ring of Swords" and the difficulty of "The Great River" plus "Ruins of Saurgrath"!
Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
I have heard this suggested before (and have a couple concerns), but with your inclusion I think enough people have brought it up that I should seriously consider it.Spannerbag wrote: ↑October 20th, 2024, 10:58 am Just a random thought: when a scenario starts and the player chooses Delf's spells for that session do you think it would add to the game enjoyment if the player could subsequently amend (re-select) Delf's spells but for a fairly high xp cost?
Only one turn! Delfador's L4 fireball has enough power to kill Eldred in two attacks, so Delfador only needs to survive 1 turn of counterattacks - and with Shield+Chill Touch that's not too unreasonable.
It's also possible to do in just one turn with L3 fireball and Time Dilation if you get lucky - maybe I should look at that as well...
Good ideas, thanks. I'll see what I can do.Vendrick wrote: ↑October 20th, 2024, 4:52 pm I'ld be inclined to tweak it by making it more obvious / triggered more specifically / always triggered early.
For anti-Delfador duels Eldred, the retreat trigger could be more specific by including a check for turn counter, AI losses or how many units the player has threatening Eldred, maybe with dialogue where Eldred mocks Delfador for attempting a heroic duel and points out that he has an army.
I understand where you're coming from, but I feel that part of the campaign's enjoyment is figuring out for yourself which spells to use. Once the campaign goes mainline we will have a walkthrough for it on the wesnoth wiki, which should help out players who're really struggling.juhhyv wrote: ↑October 24th, 2024, 5:41 am In last scenario (Long Live the Queen) is some important tactics that may be good to recommend to player. First, Delfador need assault fast before enemy get all troops in group (I try many times this scenario and I win it only when I leave second fortification when I still have over 100 gold and use polymorph). It would be good if Delfador say in dialog somehow that they need attack fast before Elder get troops in formation.
Secondly it would be good to hint somehow player to use polymorph (I gain hint of it on this forum).
Will do, thanks.juhhyv wrote: ↑October 24th, 2024, 5:41 am The lack of epilogue is interesting choice. It is good for experienced Wesnoth players, but for new players it may be confusing. It may cause they think that end of TDG is end of Wesnoth too. This is important, because story continue from TSG (new tutorial campaign) to TDG. Because it, many new players play TDG in their second campaign.
This problem can be solved by adding some [story] recommends to next campaigns for new players. Example "play Freedom to see how Wesnoth's civil war affects common people" or "play Rise of Wesnoth to see how Kingdom of Wesnoth has been founded". Because only new players need recommends, it need be only easy and maybe normal difficulties.
Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
v2.1.3
- 'The Ambassador' now requires only Delfador to move to the exit
- 'Ring of Swords' is now more difficult on Normal
- far-west units in 'The Great River' now move east when the second phase is triggered
- enemies in 'Ruins of Saugrath' start with less gold, but their income increases over time
- enemies in 'Ruins of Saugrath' no longer detect invisible units
- 'Houses of the Dead' spell selection is now delayed until sighting the undead drakes
- reduced lag in 'Galcadar'
- fixed a bug in 'Revelry, Revisited' where Barin would turn hostile if Lynyan had already died
- in 'Long Live the Queen', Eldred no longer retreats unless Delfador attempts to duel him
- restored epilogue in 'Long Live the Queen'
- eyestalk now has a portrait
- casting Cataclysm now fades out the background music
- fixed L0 saurian spear throw missing projectile images
- fixed an issue where units dying to enemy attacks while under the affect of Panacea would die even after being saved by Contingency
- fixed an issue where elementals dying to enemy attacks could level up and survive
- plus countless other minor enhancements, rebalances, and bugfixes
- 'The Ambassador' now requires only Delfador to move to the exit
- 'Ring of Swords' is now more difficult on Normal
- far-west units in 'The Great River' now move east when the second phase is triggered
- enemies in 'Ruins of Saugrath' start with less gold, but their income increases over time
- enemies in 'Ruins of Saugrath' no longer detect invisible units
- 'Houses of the Dead' spell selection is now delayed until sighting the undead drakes
- reduced lag in 'Galcadar'
- fixed a bug in 'Revelry, Revisited' where Barin would turn hostile if Lynyan had already died
- in 'Long Live the Queen', Eldred no longer retreats unless Delfador attempts to duel him
- restored epilogue in 'Long Live the Queen'
- eyestalk now has a portrait
- casting Cataclysm now fades out the background music
- fixed L0 saurian spear throw missing projectile images
- fixed an issue where units dying to enemy attacks while under the affect of Panacea would die even after being saved by Contingency
- fixed an issue where elementals dying to enemy attacks could level up and survive
- plus countless other minor enhancements, rebalances, and bugfixes
-
novavoyager
- Posts: 1
- Joined: October 20th, 2024, 8:07 pm
Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
Thanks for the information.
Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
Second part third scenario Omarath has bug. When map become bigger, Delfador say: "My levitation spell has end over umpassable terrain. I fall my death" and die. Then other characters move back to their original positions and dialogue continue without Delfador. After dialogue, I just lost scenario.
Quote is not perfect.
Quote is not perfect.
Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
Should already be fixed in the newest version! Or you can work around by cancelling Levitate before the map expands.
Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
It was NOT fixed in the newest version. I had meant to automatically cancel levitate, but I automatically casted it instead!
v2.1.4
- fixed a gamebreaking bug in S09 Omaranth that caused Delfador to die halfway through the scenario
- Garard is now more helpful in 'Galcadar', and he commands a larger army
- added a *temporary* portrait for young Asheviere, pending properly-commissioned art
- numerous minor changes to stay consistent with Asheviere's Dogs
- various bugfixes
v2.1.4
- fixed a gamebreaking bug in S09 Omaranth that caused Delfador to die halfway through the scenario
- Garard is now more helpful in 'Galcadar', and he commands a larger army
- added a *temporary* portrait for young Asheviere, pending properly-commissioned art
- numerous minor changes to stay consistent with Asheviere's Dogs
- various bugfixes
Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
Hello, I want to report a bug. It seems if you killed an enemy with the familiar that results with it advancing, while at the same time triggering an event that allows Delfador to repick his spell, picking a spell that results in the familiar being desummoned will crash the game. Also, in Ruins of Saurgrath, i consistenly get an error message at the start of turn 12, that is "[event] is missing name or id field (7)".
Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
I'll take a look at these, thanks.
-
revolting_peasant
- Posts: 245
- Joined: May 29th, 2012, 5:45 pm
Re: The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!
Playing this with 1.19.9, and when Delfador (first?) defeats someone, I am told that I can't level Delfador up by maxing out his XP. But - that does not tell me how he _will_ level up; nor, more importantly, whether I should simply ignore his XP, or whether they have some other use beside healing.
I later noticed the text above the spells dialog, but the other notification should say something about that as well. Also, the XP cost of spells seems extremely high relative to their benefit. Now, sure, sometimes you just have to levitate, but 20% change to evade a hit _for one turn_ for 8 XP? If it were 80% for one turn, or 20% for the entire scenario, then maybe.
I later noticed the text above the spells dialog, but the other notification should say something about that as well. Also, the XP cost of spells seems extremely high relative to their benefit. Now, sure, sometimes you just have to levitate, but 20% change to evade a hit _for one turn_ for 8 XP? If it were 80% for one turn, or 20% for the entire scenario, then maybe.