Balance changes for Wesnoth 1.20

[DuncanDill]

XD That doesnt answer my question. Dont avoid it answer me.

Since again everyone wants something else. And all people act as if nothing cant go their way. Well if you say balance then I do 50% and you have a right to contest the remaining 50%. After all Im also part of the community, or am I not in the community?

Henje, I agree with mirion on this for sure. If you want to help wesnoth, you listen to the whole community, not just the people that agree with you. You signed up for the job of balancing mp. If the community doesnt like it, it doesnt matter how much you think you balanced it, its bad. If you can't deal with that, step down for a while.

I in no way dislike you henje, but right now youre being a real jerk and pos.

[Hejnewar]

If you want to help wesnoth, you listen to the whole community, not just the people that agree with you.

But I do. I see people agreeing with everything, and people agreeing with something. And Im still giving half. Is that not enough? In fact I will also give you both a tip dont try to be so righterous it only makes things worse, in fact i will threat it even more like a slap in the face now AND take it personal as it basically says that that line wouldnt be interesting which is something very personal for me and what I ignored before.

real jerk

I will take that as a compliment.

About community

In fact there is a person who is designated as someone who should convey the voices of people however he doesnt do a good job right now. Not saying he shouldnt be given second chances but right now even Forest is more agreeable (which positively suprised me).

[Mirion147]

No one is being righteous. That being said, I see this as being pointless so will dip out of this conversation and likely just revert any changes you make in my campaign if I feel they are required.

[DuncanDill]

But I do. I see people agreeing with everything, and people agreeing with something.

What? From what I can see many people are against your HI changes. Apart from that, I, and many others, seem to be alright with it. But even the slightest critique on one tiny thing seems to set you off a bit.

And Im still giving half. Is that not enough?

Sorry, this confused me a bit, can you explain what you mean

In fact I will also give you both a tip dont try to be so righterous it only makes things worse,

Not being righteous, just showing my opinion.

in fact i will threat it even more like a slap in the face now AND take it personal as it basically says that that line wouldnt be interesting which is something very personal for me and what I ignored before.

Do take it as a slap in the face then. I'm not being rude (or at least not trying), but that was the whole purpose of what i said.

I will take that as a compliment.

Alright, I can see youre just trying to get a cheap laugh, so i wont hold the rest of this too much.

In fact there is a person who is designated as someone who should convey the voices of people however he doesnt do a good job right now. Not saying he shouldnt be given second chances but right now even Forest is more agreeable (which positively suprised me).

Hmmm? Whos that?


I will probably just ignore this from now on, and make my own era so that I dont have to deal with this. So, goodbye (unless you suggest making a HI have 8 mp)

[ForestDragon]

What? From what I can see many people are against your HI changes. Apart from that, I, and many others, seem to be alright with it.

Well, I'd even the other ideas (like 10% blade res. for elf archer) are getting a fair share of criticism, but HI is definitely the most debated point.

and likely just revert any changes you make in my campaign if I feel they are required.

Yeah, it's sad that such measures have become necessary starting from 1.18

[Hejnewar]

I will probably just ignore this from now on, and make my own era so that I dont have to deal with this. So, goodbye

Why do you even ask questions if you say that.

Do take it as a slap in the face then. I'm not being rude (or at least not trying), but that was the whole purpose of what i said.

But even the slightest critique on one tiny thing seems to set you off a bit.

It seems crazy to create a whole new unit line (with all the artwork that entails) for a role that is already almost filled by an existing one.

Excuse me but this is not "slightest critique" for me. It implies that the line would be boring (aka I would allow unit that is boring to exist, I would sooner see Dalas make it boring with simplification cuz "hard to understand" which even UtBS doesnt seem to be but thats besidesd the point) and that it is too much work to do (which means that the project cant even provide that much) and both set me off.

Hmmm? Whos that?

dwarftough

[KameRamen]

Sorry for my outside opinion. The changes to Elvish Archers are fine, but the changes to HI and the enhancements to Ghouls are, in my opinion, pointless. It seems to me that these changes do not need to be implemented and will only make the gameplay worse. I think you should be reminded that these updates will also affect single-player campaigns. And, to be honest, this thread is very ugly. If I were new player, I would shun Wesnoth just by looking at this thread.

EDIT: I agree that recruitment costs should be reduced.

[SexyPringles]

Thats already way too much. This unit is much closer to the limit than people realise.

I'm going to have too see some credentials for that, got any replays?

People already argue to not remove even 10% of impact. I dont see this future. Even if it might have somewhat worked.

People have been against and for removing the 10% impact, with valid reasons but I still believe that the common ground can be found. Like I previously said, rest of the HI advancements can have the 10% impact resistance while the first lvl unit is with the 0% impact resistance. And the must have fearless trait on top of that then I believe people would agree on that.

I prefered to change parry as it is more fun in game rather than make another 0/0/0 resistances unit. I still do.

Some find it fun, some don't. The parry in soldiers case is purely negative stat with 0 advantages, I personally see it more of a reason not to recruit dune soldier anymore. I did not suggest to make the soldier resistances as purely 0/0/0 but more like 20/10/-10/0/0/10 or 20/0/-10/0/0/10. Most factions already have unit/units that do ranged pierce damage and this would be the simple way to balance the soldier. If you are giving the negative parry for soldier then I suggest to add something positive too to balance it out.

[Hejnewar]

Ghouls are, in my opinion, pointless. It seems to me that these changes do not need to be implemented and will only make the gameplay worse.

Funnly enough most SP content creators actually liked it.

I'm going to have too see some credentials for that, got any replays?

What do you expect to see there? That they destroy undead? You can play with me on stream if you want you will get a replay that way and i will get a game to play.

Like I previously said, rest of the HI advancements can have the 10% impact resistance while the first lvl unit is with the 0% impact resistance.

Thats fine.

The parry in soldiers case is purely negative stat with 0 advantages, I personally see it more of a reason not to recruit dune soldier anymore.

Well this is how nerfs work. They are supposed to do that.

[SexyPringles]

What do you expect to see there? That they destroy undead? You can play with me on stream if you want you will get a replay that way and i will get a game to play.

Yea sure, I'm open to that just gotta see my schedule. But my main point is that if dune scorchers melee needs to be completely removed, I'm getting a picture that his blade 6x2 is so overpowered against every faction in the game which I kinda find hard to believe.

Well this is how nerfs work. They are supposed to do that.

Yeah, i get the nerf and support it, but not necessarily the way it was done is my point.

Vs dwarfs the most important change is soldier who now has some better counters, however im not entierly happy with that and I will be trying to find even better solution for it.

Even you weren't yet entirely sure about it in the first post and I believe just lowering the blade and/or pierce resistances to 10% is enough so soldier has better counters against dwarves. I don't think it's a completely bad idea even if I say so myself but what do you think.

[Hejnewar]

I'm getting a picture that his blade 6x2 is so overpowered against every faction in the game which I kinda find hard to believe.

So you are just not understanding this part. Well this unit has to be good but not op against many many different threats. But main problem were undead. Right now I proposed two solutions:
a) negative parry - which makes ghoul and skeleton both better in dealing with it and makes use of burner harder and requires some protection thats the simpler one for me
b) no melee - which doesnt make skeleton as good (still helps), but because unlike skeleton ghoul doesnt actually have good blade resistance it actually helps ghoul a lot by removing a lot of the punishment it woul otherwise take when attacking burner, being able to withstand damage that will come back on burner turn easier and generally allows it to counter burner much better thru multiple turns

It is not overpowered against every faction, it is consequence of me needing that 7-3 fire raned else where, thus reducing options I have to balance it with.

Even you weren't yet entirely sure about it in the first post and I believe just lowering the blade and/or pierce resistances to 10% is enough so soldier has better counters against dwarves. I don't think it's a completely bad idea even if I say so myself but what do you think.

Honestly I already forgot about that cuz the discussion is so long.

Yeah, i get the nerf and support it, but not necessarily the way it was done is my point.

I would actually like to nerf it a bit more and give it some kind of ability but I dont think people will agree due "making the game more complex".

[Skyend]

Sure go ahead, as you don't see how imba 1.18 is.
With talking to you wasn't doing anything last time there is no hope left anyway.

[KameRamen]

As the campaign designer and player, I would like to give you my opinion in more detail. Overall, I honestly still think these are very wrong. Why is the option of maintaining the status quo excluded in the first place?

As for the Ghouls, this is single-player perspective, but I still do not think that changes are necessary. For players, less strong, disposable units are also strategically important. If one-time pieces acquire more resistances than they should, the balance of the game is more or less destroyed. This may be the opinion of very few for you, but first of all, please understand that the majority of players would not dare to post in this thread.

And the biggest problem: the change to HI. To be clear, this is criminal and I can assure you it will completely destroy the gameplay that Wesnoth has. Why the fearless trait eliminated? Why do they have 5 MP? While they may indeed be effective in multi-player, I fear that these changes will extend to Wesnoth as at large. Your personal opinion will get many players and creators in trouble. That is obvious to anyone reading this thread. May be thick, but you should be more aware of the authority you have.

Many of the other ideas are generally acceptable, but they are not entirely an improvement anyway, they just need to be released as mods, and if you really want to implement them in Wesnoth 1.20 you should seriously listen to the criticisms of many people. You should have opened this thread for that purpose, never just to communicate your tentative decision.

And, sorry to be so abstract, but please think about what children would think if they saw an exchange like this that does not really stand up as an argument. I am in high school now, but I have been playing Wesnoth since I was in primary school and reading the forums. From the young perspective, I have to say that I honestly do not think your attitude is very mature.

[ForestDragon]

Why is the option of maintaining the status quo excluded in the first place?

Unfortunately lately it seems some members of the dev team have been following a misguided idea that to attract new players they need to radically change existing content (units/campaigns/etc) and hejnewar seems to be one of the more extreme followers of that idea.

For many stable updates the community could trust the developers to not make any super-radical changes, but that changed with hejne's 1.18 rework, and most of the community only saw the disastrous changes back then when it was already too late to stop them (1.18 balance discussion only had 6 pages, here we already have 8 ). Now many people are more alert and are trying to stop 1.20 from becoming even worse.

As for the Ghouls, this is single-player perspective, but I still do not think that changes are necessary. For players, less strong, disposable units are also strategically important. If one-time pieces acquire more resistances than they should, the balance of the game is more or less destroyed. This may be the opinion of very few for you, but first of all, please understand that the majority of players would not dare to post in this thread.

And the biggest problem: the change to HI. To be clear, this is criminal and I can assure you it will completely destroy the gameplay that Wesnoth has. Why the fearless trait eliminated? Why do they have 5 MP? While they may indeed be effective in multi-player, I fear that these changes will extend to Wesnoth as at large. Your personal opinion will get many players and creators in trouble. That is obvious to anyone reading this thread. May be thick, but you should be more aware of the authority you have.

Many of the other ideas are generally acceptable, but they are not entirely an improvement anyway, they just need to be released as mods, and if you really want to implement them in Wesnoth 1.20 you should seriously listen to the criticisms of many people. You should have opened this thread for that purpose, never just to communicate your tentative decision.

Good points

And, sorry to be so abstract, but please think about what children would think if they saw an exchange like this that does not really stand up as an argument. I am in high school now, but I have been playing Wesnoth since I was in primary school and reading the forums. From the young perspective, I have to say that I honestly do not think your attitude is very mature.

Yeah, as others pointed out, the attitude is not fitting of what a MP/balancing lead should be like.

[Hejnewar]

I have already decided what I'm going to do. Since pleasing everyone is impossible I simply won't be even trying to please if I can do something I might. But that will depend on community perspective since I'm right now hearing few voices over and over again instead.

But worry not some changes discussed here like Slurbow (not pachnotes version, the discussed version) will stay since people responding seem to be satisfied.

I wanted to split MP and SP balance even before but people didn't like that you should talk with them not with me.

Im also listening to your opinion and since this makes me too emotional then I will simply change the communication method to less direct. And I will only answer good questions and give explanations here. It will also allow me to judge community sentiment better since this truly is just a small portion of the community here.

If you want to talk directly I welcome anyone to the Saturday stream where drama is appreciated for the content.

Regards.