Direction of sun movement

[Viliam]

I grew up in a house that faced south, so I'm used to the sun rising on my left and setting on my right.

I also live in a house facing south, so seeing sun on the right in the morning is OK to me.

Maybe the intuition in the poll only reflects the orientation of voters' homes.

[turin]

I grew up in a house that faced south, so I'm used to the sun rising on my left and setting on my right.

I also live in a house facing south, so seeing sun on the right in the morning is OK to me.

Maybe the intuition in the poll only reflects the orientation of voters' homes.

I live in a house that... um... doesn't really face any direction. My room, at least, faces east, there is a window in the SE corner, I am in the NW corner of the room, and I almost always see the sun rising. That might be why I insist on the sun rising in the SE not the NE...

[Breeblebox]

Surely the orientation of the map you are playing on is related to the direction in which you were travelling (anyone see a compass rose on the map?), not necessarily having north at the top.

Anyway, who decided north was up. The top of my screen is not north of the bottom! Y'all looking at maps on your bedroom wall methinks, try using one outside with a compass.

The 'time-of-day' indicator does not need to match your preconceptions of map orientation. I think, as mentioned already, that it makes most sense when analogous to a clock.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Yeah, my computer faces West, so the Wesnoth sun rises in the south and sets in the north! Weird, huh?

[turin]

"North is Up" is not inherently true of Wesnoth, but it has been declared to be true for all HttT scenarios, and most others. It is confusing to have north be a different direction every time, so most people keep "North is Up" true unless there is a reason not to.

[stormoog]

Can you believe it? I signed up for the forum and learned to use the Wiki, just to vote northern-hemisphere/left-to-right..

I just love this game. Have played it for a week or so now. The direction of the sun was bothering me a bit, but I just assumed Wesnoth was on the planet Zork or something.

This is really weird. The poll seems to reveal a near-perfectly-even split of opinion. The fact that people's intuitions can be so evenly divided into two opposing cases...

I have to agree on that. Nothing to add to the arguments for the case itself though.

[alex]

I voted for "left to right" because I find the actual images quite confusing:
I think about the writing direction while I watch the sun... and I istinctively expect it to go from left to right.

I know that it's not correct for the northern emisphere and so on... but I think it's more important to be intuitive than correct in this case.

[turin]

I know that it's not correct for the northern emisphere and so on... but I think it's more important to be intuitive than correct in this case.

Well, there's even argument over whether it is correct or not. I hold that it is not. Especially for winter maps.


Now, please, can we get support for an option or something? This seems like one of the few situations I have seen where an option is actually a good idea...

[rogue]

I know that it's not correct for the northern emisphere and so on... but I think it's more important to be intuitive than correct in this case.

Well, there's even argument over whether it is correct or not. I hold that it is not. Especially for winter maps.


Now, please, can we get support for an option or something? This seems like one of the few situations I have seen where an option is actually a good idea...

I wrote a patch for this and submitted it on the project site. It's now up to the devs if they want to use it or not.

I also posted the patched files in the other Sun Movement thread, so you can use it if you have the means to compile the game.

[xtifr]

I still think an option would be overkill. The problem seems to be that some people are confused, and it seems like this is likely to be the case no matter which direction the sun moves. And a user option is going to be A) hard to find, and B) probably confusing too.

So, as I suggested before, instead of complicating matters with a confusing, hard-to-find user option, why not simply print the name of the time of day below the image? We already have translations of the names of the time of day, so translation isn't an issue. And if it says "Morning" right there on the screen, people will probably be able to figure out that it's not afternoon, even if the sun is on the "wrong" side of the sky for their intuition. And this solution should take a lot less code! In fact, I can't think of a downside, except, perhaps the issue of screen real estate, and I'm pretty sure there's still plenty left.

[stormoog]

If we would have numbers instead of pictures for the different phases of the day (e.g. 1,2,3,4,5,6), everybody would learn fast enough that 1,2 favours chaotic and that 4,5 favours lawful. The problem seems to be that the pictures we currently use go against something we learned earlier on (sun goes from left to right). We might want to use pictures that are more neutral.
For example, we could remove the sun from the picture all together. Dusk could differ in colour from dawn. A colour sequence (black, black, green, white, white, red) is almost as easy to remember as a number sequence.

Of course, just relying on colours for recognition might not work for everybody, so we might have some other clues as well. One option would be to use a horizontal colour gradient, with coulds at dusk, and without clouds at dawn.


edit:
hmm, shouldn't this be in the other thread?

[Sangel]

I still think an option would be overkill. The problem seems to be that some people are confused, and it seems like this is likely to be the case no matter which direction the sun moves. And a user option is going to be A) hard to find, and B) probably confusing too.

You don't seem to have followed the discussion closely enough. The problem isn't that some people are "confused", the problem is that people have very different intuitions as to what direction the sun should travel in.

And yes, this will be a problem no matter which direction the sun moves in. This is precisely why an option makes sense in this situation.

[xtifr]

You don't seem to have followed the discussion closely enough. The problem isn't that some people are "confused", the problem is that people have very different intuitions as to what direction the sun should travel in.

Haven't followed it closely enough? I've been one of the primary agitators in the discussion since it first came up! And yes, the problem IS that people are confused. I know - I'm one. That's why I feel so strongly about the topic, and why I've spent so much time agitating for change!

The fact that people's intuitions differ is the REASON some people are confused. If people aren't confused, it doesn't really matter what their intuition says. As long as you actually know what time of day it is, you won't find yourself charging the Orcs just as the sun is setting. The picture's a little counterintuitive? That's no big deal. Losing half my troops because I can't tell what time of day it is? That's a BIG DEAL!

People's intuituion on the matter is a minor, trivial, aesthetic matter. People being confused and not knowing the time of day is a MAJOR PROBLEM!

Adding a user option? That's find IF people can find the option, and IF they can figure out what it means, and IF they can recognize that it relates to the confusion they're experiencing. Those are three big "if"s. My solution, showing the name of the time of day, simply and completely fixes the real underlying problem in a simple, straightforward, and easy-to-code way.

[scott]

You don't seem to have followed the discussion closely enough. The problem isn't that some people are "confused", the problem is that people have very different intuitions as to what direction the sun should travel in.

Haven't followed it closely enough? I've been one of the primary agitators in the discussion since it first came up! And yes, the problem IS that people are confused. I know - I'm one. That's why I feel so strongly about the topic, and why I've spent so much time agitating for change!

The fact that people's intuitions differ is the REASON some people are confused. If people aren't confused, it doesn't really matter what their intuition says. As long as you actually know what time of day it is, you won't find yourself charging the Orcs just as the sun is setting. The picture's a little counterintuitive? That's no big deal. Losing half my troops because I can't tell what time of day it is? That's a BIG DEAL!

People's intuituion on the matter is a minor, trivial, aesthetic matter. People being confused and not knowing the time of day is a MAJOR PROBLEM!

Adding a user option? That's find IF people can find the option, and IF they can figure out what it means, and IF they can recognize that it relates to the confusion they're experiencing. Those are three big "if"s. My solution, showing the name of the time of day, simply and completely fixes the real underlying problem in a simple, straightforward, and easy-to-code way.

But it sounds like you're saying that the problem is that people don't know what time it is. I think they mostly do but are annoyed by the graphics. Adding text could be good to further help people know what time it is, and people have the means to fix the graphical problems. Using either convention only pleases 40-60% of the people. It sounds to me like we're good to go leaving things as-is (with or without helpful text).

[xtifr]

But it sounds like you're saying that the problem is that people don't know what time it is.

That was a major problem for me when I first started playing, yes.

I think they mostly do but are annoyed by the graphics.

I don't think it's annoying, I just think it's confusing. Having it go backwards (and I agree that there are going to be a lot of people who think it's backwards no matter which way it goes) is just one more thing to cope with when you're trying to learn the game. Like any other part of the game, once you learn how it works, it's not a problem, but having a confusing display is simply one more obstacle in the path of people who are trying to learn the game mechanics. Having text (it could also be a tooltip) won't help experienced players, but will definitely help the beginners, and I think that's a good thing.