Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

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CosmicBandito
Posts: 12
Joined: February 12th, 2020, 10:53 pm

Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by CosmicBandito »

Just a simple question, I tried to find a corresponding thread but haven't...

Maybe this is an incorrectly posted forum, feel free to transfer it to a more appropriate...

When it comes to carry over gold from each scenario, I find it is sometimes quite unpredictable.

1) If I play a scenario collecting as much gold as possible before winning in the last few turns

or

2) Try and finish the scenario early to get a bonus

or

Some combination of 1 and 2

I find that many times I still end up with little gold at the beginning, even less than I had at the end of the last scenario.

I have read others experiences with the same scenarios, some say they start with $400 or more yet I'll be lucky to keep $180 from the previous.

Where did my hard earned gold go? It is tough to plan for the future and have it taken away from you for unknown reasons.

Plus, in some scenarios, you just have too difficult of a time without a decent amount of gold to start what with high level units and their upkeep and significant enemy numbers. It's discouraging.

The only thing I've seen about definitive carry over gold amounts are the short text dialogues at the scenario ends... gold earned plus bonus, if any, over the defined minimum starting gold for the next scenario.

But many times my starting gold in the next scenario is less then what was stated in the dialogue at the end of the previous...

What is the criteria for carry over gold, the rules, what can I expect?

It would be nice to know just how much gold is needed to have a sustainable chance in a particular scenario without assuming that I am supposedly to win with so little funds in the first place. It's a tedious time burner scenario.

Just wondering...

Thanks.

Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by Velensk »

You will always get the at least as much if not more gold finishing the previous scenario as quickly as possible. The way it works is that the scenario calculates how much gold you would have if you collected gold from all villages on the map for all remaining turns (without having to pay upkeep on units), so (current gold + remaining turns * max possible income). It then takes a % of that value and that is the amount of gold you carry over. Note that this does mean that if you finish a scenario deeply in debt (due to unit upkeep) you will most likely get no carryover gold.

Part of the reason the gold carryover may seem unpredictable to you is that there are actually two systems the new one and the old one. I'd thought that by now pretty much all mainline campaigns would use the new system but maybe that's not the case given what you've seen.
--In the old system, the % that you carried over was relatively high however if the end total was less than the minimum amount of gold the next scenario specified you got that minimum instead.
--In the new system, the carryover is a much smaller % of the total you got from the formula however it's added directly on top of the minimum scenario gold instead of replacing it if you carried over more.

In general, finish scenarios as quickly as possible while having as much stockpiled gold possible to get the best possible bonus.

It's also worth noting that a few scenario in some campaigns (Northern Rebirth comes to mind) basically just reset your gold stocks to a set value. This isn't common and probably isn't good design but it can help the campaign designers keep some grasp on their difficulty curve.

EDIT: As a final note, if you did carry over 100% of gold earned with either system, it's basically be impossible to regulate a difficulty curve for the players without making every scenario play on a punishing time limit that would really limit a players strategic options. As it is, you can normally play either fast and reckless with the aim to have more resources in the long run, or you can play slow and cautious which will generally make it easier to win battles and keep veterans alive but will cost you in the gold department.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

CosmicBandito
Posts: 12
Joined: February 12th, 2020, 10:53 pm

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by CosmicBandito »

Thanks for the input.

It's appreciated because I really want to enjoy the game.

I'll try your suggestions, though I have finished some scenarios close to 50% of the turns yet still been left with little gold.

And I agree, just because there is little gold to start, doesn't mean it's not possible, Northern Rebirth is a good example. It may be about difficulty.

In some scenarios, I may be able to save 800plus and for some reason it is still there in the next one, yet in others I'm left with little to work with.

But I've had this happen in Heir to the Throne too, It is aggravating to spend hours trying to do something with little resources and then missing winning by one turn. :-(

Again, thanks,

Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by Velensk »

I didn't say anything about anything it still being possible? Granted generally is but I didn't say anything about that.

I'm not sure how much gold you're expecting but I expect if you worked it out, you'd find that the math checks out. In a hypothetical situation where you finished a scenario with 800 gold and no turns left, if you're playing with the new system you're looking at a carryover of 160, which when added to the typical scenario minimum is 260 gold. In the context of a typical Wesnoth scenario, 260 gold isn't particularly low.

There's plenty of ways to work with the system if you know what you're doing but if your expectations are off you'll always be discontent even if you're doing fine.

There is one other pice of advise I can give. Try to avoid recalling too many units. A few well chosen veterans can make scenarios a lot less risky and help you win faster but a units upkeep is based on it's level thus over the course of a scenario, especially a longer scenario, the cost of veterans can add up pretty quickly.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

otzenpunk
Posts: 80
Joined: February 11th, 2018, 5:32 pm
Location: Hamburg / Germany

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by otzenpunk »

CosmicBandito wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 12:04 am
In some scenarios, I may be able to save 800plus and for some reason it is still there in the next one, yet in others I'm left with little to work with.
It's a little bit difficult to reproduce what's happened to you without a proper example. Maybe you want to replay one of the scenarios, where you think your gold vanished improperly, screenshot the final screen, where your remaining gold is calculated, and see with what you're starting into the next scenario.

As Velensk already wrote, you're not entitled to keep all of your gold for the next scenario, but typically just 40%. So the formula is:

(Remaining gold when finishing scenario + Early finishing bonus) x 0.4 + Minimum starting gold

As Velensk also wrote, negative gold at the end of a scenario is offset first by the early finishing bonus, so if you're heavy in the negatives, you actually don't get anything except the minimum.
CosmicBandito wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 11:18 pm
I have read others experiences with the same scenarios, some say they start with $400 or more yet I'll be lucky to keep $180 from the previous.
There are several reasons why this could be the case. First is, obviously, that the player you refer to played on a lower difficulty level and had more starting gold.

Or he is just more experienced than you and managed to finish the previous scenario quicker than you and/or with considerably less and cheaper units, saving lots of gold pieces in upkeep. Remember, non-loyal units cost upkeep according to their level. Recalling a lvl3 unit for 20 gps seems to be a bargain compared to any lvl1 unit for e.g. 16 gps. But during a 15 turn scenario the lvl1 unit costs 16 + 15x1 = 31 gps, while the lvl3 tank costs 20 + 15x3 = 65 gps, more than twice as much, and the longer a scenario lasts, the more this makes an impact. It also adds up very quickly the more units you recall.

It's part of becoming an experienced Wesnoth player to learn to assess how many resources you'd probably need to solve a particular scenario in an optimal way. Sometimes it's really the best strategy to hit fast and hard with your best units, go into negative gold, and more than compensate for that with a huge finishing bonus. (Often on large maps with many villages and many turns available.) In other scenarios it's better to keep your income at least neutral, because otherwise your bank account is going so heavy negative that you'll end up with just the minimum starting gold for the next scenario. And other scenarios are in fact just easy transitional maps, and you're actually supposed to keep your upkeep low and save your money for later. From time to time there are also scenarios supposed to drain you out, because the upcoming scenarios are designed to play them with just a small number of units.

CosmicBandito
Posts: 12
Joined: February 12th, 2020, 10:53 pm

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by CosmicBandito »

Velensk wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 12:29 am
I didn't say anything about anything it still being possible? Granted generally is but I didn't say anything about that.

I'm not sure how much gold you're expecting but I expect if you worked it out, you'd find that the math checks out. In a hypothetical situation where you finished a scenario with 800 gold and no turns left, if you're playing with the new system you're looking at a carryover of 160, which when added to the typical scenario minimum is 260 gold. In the context of a typical Wesnoth scenario, 260 gold isn't particularly low.

There's plenty of ways to work with the system if you know what you're doing but if your expectations are off you'll always be discontent even if you're doing fine.

There is one other pice of advise I can give. Try to avoid recalling too many units. A few well chosen veterans can make scenarios a lot less risky and help you win faster but a units upkeep is based on it's level thus over the course of a scenario, especially a longer scenario, the cost of veterans can add up pretty quickly.
No, you didn't say that, but I'm trying to be positive with the resources I'm left.

I try all kinds of things, from not using my leveled units, which sometimes works if I'm lucky with the RNG. Or just a few leveled units. Either way it is very costly in loss of units especially if I have methodically leveled up my units... only to watch them die needlessly.

I also think that, in some scenarios, you must have fodder units, this is because you do not mind losing them and they draw attention from more valuable units.
And when these non-loyal units die, income naturally goes up. But if you have little income to start and few useful loyal units, all one can hope for is luck with the RNG.

I hate to repeatedly reload, I prefer to start from the beginning. And I continuously try to make previous scenarios give me more gold... to no avail... :-(

Again, thanks

CosmicBandito
Posts: 12
Joined: February 12th, 2020, 10:53 pm

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by CosmicBandito »

otzenpunk wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 1:54 am
CosmicBandito wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 12:04 am
In some scenarios, I may be able to save 800plus and for some reason it is still there in the next one, yet in others I'm left with little to work with.
It's a little bit difficult to reproduce what's happened to you without a proper example. Maybe you want to replay one of the scenarios, where you think your gold vanished improperly, screenshot the final screen, where your remaining gold is calculated, and see with what you're starting into the next scenario.

As Velensk already wrote, you're not entitled to keep all of your gold for the next scenario, but typically just 40%. So the formula is:

(Remaining gold when finishing scenario + Early finishing bonus) x 0.4 + Minimum starting gold

As Velensk also wrote, negative gold at the end of a scenario is offset first by the early finishing bonus, so if you're heavy in the negatives, you actually don't get anything except the minimum.
CosmicBandito wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 11:18 pm
I have read others experiences with the same scenarios, some say they start with $400 or more yet I'll be lucky to keep $180 from the previous.
There are several reasons why this could be the case. First is, obviously, that the player you refer to played on a lower difficulty level and had more starting gold.

Or he is just more experienced than you and managed to finish the previous scenario quicker than you and/or with considerably less and cheaper units, saving lots of gold pieces in upkeep. Remember, non-loyal units cost upkeep according to their level. Recalling a lvl3 unit for 20 gps seems to be a bargain compared to any lvl1 unit for e.g. 16 gps. But during a 15 turn scenario the lvl1 unit costs 16 + 15x1 = 31 gps, while the lvl3 tank costs 20 + 15x3 = 65 gps, more than twice as much, and the longer a scenario lasts, the more this makes an impact. It also adds up very quickly the more units you recall.

It's part of becoming an experienced Wesnoth player to learn to assess how many resources you'd probably need to solve a particular scenario in an optimal way. Sometimes it's really the best strategy to hit fast and hard with your best units, go into negative gold, and more than compensate for that with a huge finishing bonus. (Often on large maps with many villages and many turns available.) In other scenarios it's better to keep your income at least neutral, because otherwise your bank account is going so heavy negative that you'll end up with just the minimum starting gold for the next scenario. And other scenarios are in fact just easy transitional maps, and you're actually supposed to keep your upkeep low and save your money for later. From time to time there are also scenarios supposed to drain you out, because the upcoming scenarios are designed to play them with just a small number of units.
No, I'm not implying my gold vanished improperly, but if there is a definitive way to reliably predict that I end up with more gold...
And, starting a scenario, not knowing if it is possible for you to have more gold, is confusing.

You try with what you have. Then you go back a scenario or two to try and get more gold, then you start the whole campaign over again with a different strategy.
It's all seemingly and needlessly time consuming, when knowing just what would be a reasonable starting gold amount at the beginning of the scenario would save alot of wasted time, the point is to enjoy yourself, not wonder if you were supposed to or it was possible to have more gold.

Of course, it does say in the ending dialogue... " the minimum starting gold" but that's vague in my opinion. So I'm assuming the minimum is always possible?

I'd rather be in control of my gold reserves just as much as my unit levels.

Thanks for you input.

otzenpunk
Posts: 80
Joined: February 11th, 2018, 5:32 pm
Location: Hamburg / Germany

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by otzenpunk »

CosmicBandito wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 8:34 pm
Of course, it does say in the ending dialogue... " the minimum starting gold" but that's vague in my opinion. So I'm assuming the minimum is always possible?
Yes, the minimum is what you always get, in any case, even if you finished the previous scenario with minus 1000. This number depends though. It's the decision of the campaign author, how many gps he thinks you might need at minimum, and it's also dependent on the difficulty level. A campaign author might define that in a specific scenario you're getting a minimum of 120 gps on easy, 100 gps on normal and 80 gps on challenging. And for the next scenario he might think that 250, 200 and 170 are proper values.

But in addition to that, there are of course the aforementioned formulas to calculate the gold you're carrying over to the next scenario. As Velensk stated before, there is an "old" and a "new" formula for this, roughly depending on when the campaign was written.

The old formula was "80% OR the minimum starting gold", which in mainline campaigns is still used by Northern Rebirth and Legend of Wesmere, I guess. This formula was ditched a while ago because it discouraged players from saving money, especially if the minimum starting gold of the following scenario was comparatively high.

The new formula, used by almost every other campaign nowadays, is "40% PLUS minimum starting gold" (but always at least the minimum). So you always get the minimum of course, but if you somehow managed to keep something above zero in your treasure chest, you're always gonna get something for it, but if you really made a small fortune in the previous scenario, the cap is stricter.

These calculation models stay the same during a campaign, it doesn't for example switch randomly between the 'old' and 'new' formula. Sometimes, there are special scenarios though, which reasonably differ. Story-only scenarios for example regularly let you keep 100% of your gold, because it would be stupid somehow, if the game just steals you 60% of your money without any possibility to spend it before.

Other scenarios sometimes don't exert any turn limit on you, resulting in no early finishing bonus. Or you're not entitled to carry over any gold and you're forced to start with the minimum in any case for story reasons. But all of this is normally communicated in advance in the scenario objectives.
No, I'm not implying my gold vanished improperly, but if there is a definitive way to reliably predict that I end up with more gold...
And, starting a scenario, not knowing if it is possible for you to have more gold, is confusing.

It's all seemingly and needlessly time consuming, when knowing just what would be a reasonable starting gold amount at the beginning of the scenario would save alot of wasted time, the point is to enjoy yourself, not wonder if you were supposed to or it was possible to have more gold.
The simple answer is: It's almost always possible to have more gold. In theory you could always recruit just two scouts to collect all villages, and then go on a rampage with your commander and get really, really, REALLY lucky, but of course this isn't gonna happen. But top players, who are able to beat every campaign on its hardest level, could collect incredible amounts of money during a run, when playing on easier levels. On the other side, at least on the easier levels, good players could almost always beat every scenario with the minimum starting gold only.
You try with what you have. Then you go back a scenario or two to try and get more gold, then you start the whole campaign over again with a different strategy.
When this regularly happens to you, that you get the feeling you're stuck, drained out of resources, and repeatedly have to go back several scenarios, that's definitely not how it's supposed to work, and you might consider at least one of the following points.

1. You're spending too much money. Watch your replays and focus on your use of your units. Are there units you recruited, which basically did nothing til the end of the scenario, arrived at the front when the battle was almost finished? High level units who weren't really necessary and ended up doing things like collecting villages or hunting opposing scouts, what any lvl1 unit could've done with the same effect?
2. You're too focused on your high-level units. Most of the time, it's efficient to have a mixed army with several high-level units, but also a couple of level1s, to keep upkeep down, and also to have some disposable cannon fodder handy, if you need it. A very nice ability in this context is leadership. Cheap Lvl1 units supported by a leader are often able to deal quite a lot of damage.
3. You're making too many mistakes, where you should know better and just oversee something. Again, watch your replays and try to identify such mistakes.
4. Reconsider your difficulty level. Maybe you just advanced yourself too quickly from playing easy, to normal, to challenging or hard, but aren't really experienced enough. Try playing the campaign (or any other campaign) on a slightly easier level, and see if you perform better (without turning the whole campaign into a cake walk.)
6. Learn from other people. Read the HowTos in the Wiki, watch replays from other people, which you can for example occasionally find in the GameplayFeedback->Mainline section of this forum. Ask for other people's replays, when you're struggling with a particular scenario, or upload your own and ask what mistakes you probably made.

shevegen
Posts: 283
Joined: June 3rd, 2004, 4:35 pm

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by shevegen »

I also have difficulty understanding it. But to be honest - I also never cared to want to understand it either. :)

Perhaps it might be useful to add some kind of extra option to display how much money you may have, depending on when you finish (e. g. projecting the maximum gold to have). I guess that can be calculated automatically because the number of gold you can make is dependent on villages, and the amount of turns are known too, so that should be posible to calculate. May sound trivial for all who UNDERSTAND the system - but CosmicBandito may not be the only one not instantly understanding it. I don't understand it either after so many years - it goes into my brain and right through it, without being processed. :)

CosmicBandito
Posts: 12
Joined: February 12th, 2020, 10:53 pm

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by CosmicBandito »

otzenpunk wrote:
February 14th, 2020, 3:11 am
CosmicBandito wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 8:34 pm
Of course, it does say in the ending dialogue... " the minimum starting gold" but that's vague in my opinion. So I'm assuming the minimum is always possible?
Yes, the minimum is what you always get, in any case, even if you finished the previous scenario with minus 1000. This number depends though. It's the decision of the campaign author, how many gps he thinks you might need at minimum, and it's also dependent on the difficulty level. A campaign author might define that in a specific scenario you're getting a minimum of 120 gps on easy, 100 gps on normal and 80 gps on challenging. And for the next scenario he might think that 250, 200 and 170 are proper values.

But in addition to that, there are of course the aforementioned formulas to calculate the gold you're carrying over to the next scenario. As Velensk stated before, there is an "old" and a "new" formula for this, roughly depending on when the campaign was written.

The old formula was "80% OR the minimum starting gold", which in mainline campaigns is still used by Northern Rebirth and Legend of Wesmere, I guess. This formula was ditched a while ago because it discouraged players from saving money, especially if the minimum starting gold of the following scenario was comparatively high.

The new formula, used by almost every other campaign nowadays, is "40% PLUS minimum starting gold" (but always at least the minimum). So you always get the minimum of course, but if you somehow managed to keep something above zero in your treasure chest, you're always gonna get something for it, but if you really made a small fortune in the previous scenario, the cap is stricter.

These calculation models stay the same during a campaign, it doesn't for example switch randomly between the 'old' and 'new' formula. Sometimes, there are special scenarios though, which reasonably differ. Story-only scenarios for example regularly let you keep 100% of your gold, because it would be stupid somehow, if the game just steals you 60% of your money without any possibility to spend it before.

Other scenarios sometimes don't exert any turn limit on you, resulting in no early finishing bonus. Or you're not entitled to carry over any gold and you're forced to start with the minimum in any case for story reasons. But all of this is normally communicated in advance in the scenario objectives.
No, I'm not implying my gold vanished improperly, but if there is a definitive way to reliably predict that I end up with more gold...
And, starting a scenario, not knowing if it is possible for you to have more gold, is confusing.

It's all seemingly and needlessly time consuming, when knowing just what would be a reasonable starting gold amount at the beginning of the scenario would save alot of wasted time, the point is to enjoy yourself, not wonder if you were supposed to or it was possible to have more gold.
The simple answer is: It's almost always possible to have more gold. In theory you could always recruit just two scouts to collect all villages, and then go on a rampage with your commander and get really, really, REALLY lucky, but of course this isn't gonna happen. But top players, who are able to beat every campaign on its hardest level, could collect incredible amounts of money during a run, when playing on easier levels. On the other side, at least on the easier levels, good players could almost always beat every scenario with the minimum starting gold only.
You try with what you have. Then you go back a scenario or two to try and get more gold, then you start the whole campaign over again with a different strategy.
When this regularly happens to you, that you get the feeling you're stuck, drained out of resources, and repeatedly have to go back several scenarios, that's definitely not how it's supposed to work, and you might consider at least one of the following points.

1. You're spending too much money. Watch your replays and focus on your use of your units. Are there units you recruited, which basically did nothing til the end of the scenario, arrived at the front when the battle was almost finished? High level units who weren't really necessary and ended up doing things like collecting villages or hunting opposing scouts, what any lvl1 unit could've done with the same effect?
2. You're too focused on your high-level units. Most of the time, it's efficient to have a mixed army with several high-level units, but also a couple of level1s, to keep upkeep down, and also to have some disposable cannon fodder handy, if you need it. A very nice ability in this context is leadership. Cheap Lvl1 units supported by a leader are often able to deal quite a lot of damage.
3. You're making too many mistakes, where you should know better and just oversee something. Again, watch your replays and try to identify such mistakes.
4. Reconsider your difficulty level. Maybe you just advanced yourself too quickly from playing easy, to normal, to challenging or hard, but aren't really experienced enough. Try playing the campaign (or any other campaign) on a slightly easier level, and see if you perform better (without turning the whole campaign into a cake walk.)
6. Learn from other people. Read the HowTos in the Wiki, watch replays from other people, which you can for example occasionally find in the GameplayFeedback->Mainline section of this forum. Ask for other people's replays, when you're struggling with a particular scenario, or upload your own and ask what mistakes you probably made.
All good advice. Thanks for you efforts to help.

Last night, I went ahead and tried a few scenarios while specifically not using many units, leveled or otherwise, and steamrolling as best as the die will let me to kill the leader. Even though I managed to save over $350, because I had to work with so little, I did not win until the last 2 turns. But according to the calculations, I ended up with about 245 gold for the next scenario which adds up. That's progress.

Also I found the defined minimums values in each scenario's configuration files. Although, apparently, it is still possible to have less than that because of the calculations.

Again, thanks for you detailed efforts to help me feel better about carry over gold.

CosmicBandito
Posts: 12
Joined: February 12th, 2020, 10:53 pm

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by CosmicBandito »

shevegen wrote:
February 14th, 2020, 6:21 pm
I also have difficulty understanding it. But to be honest - I also never cared to want to understand it either. :)

Perhaps it might be useful to add some kind of extra option to display how much money you may have, depending on when you finish (e. g. projecting the maximum gold to have). I guess that can be calculated automatically because the number of gold you can make is dependent on villages, and the amount of turns are known too, so that should be posible to calculate. May sound trivial for all who UNDERSTAND the system - but CosmicBandito may not be the only one not instantly understanding it. I don't understand it either after so many years - it goes into my brain and right through it, without being processed. :)
I was thinking along the same lines, in a way.

I already know the strategies of gaining villages , leveling units, and trying to end the scenario in the fewest moves, that's always been obvious. I've always tried to keep that in mind while playing but, I think, I may have been being too reluctant to be gung ho. After all it's just a game, you lose a unit, so what.

Also going from one extremely tough low resource situation to yet another... one just might like to have a bit more funds and find out what is getting in your way in that direction.

Thanks for your input.




As above. I have found the preset minimum starting gold values in the Wesnoth scenario data folder config. files.

Maybe that will help

gnombat
Posts: 290
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 8:49 pm

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by gnombat »

CosmicBandito wrote:
February 14th, 2020, 6:45 pm
Also I found the defined minimums values in each scenario's configuration files. Although, apparently, it is still possible to have less than that because of the calculations.
I don't think that's actually possible (to have less than the minimum) unless there's a bug somewhere ... do you recall a specific scenario where that happened? (Or even better, do you have a save file?)

CosmicBandito
Posts: 12
Joined: February 12th, 2020, 10:53 pm

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by CosmicBandito »

gnombat wrote:
February 14th, 2020, 10:15 pm
CosmicBandito wrote:
February 14th, 2020, 6:45 pm
Also I found the defined minimums values in each scenario's configuration files. Although, apparently, it is still possible to have less than that because of the calculations.
I don't think that's actually possible (to have less than the minimum) unless there's a bug somewhere ... do you recall a specific scenario where that happened? (Or even better, do you have a save file?)
No, I'm not sure, but it wasn't much less, like 178 instead of 180.

Last night, after finding that I could acquire more gold for the next scenario, I decide I'd find out just how much more I could get by reloading and finishing even earlier or finishing later. Of course finishing earlier may entail not killing all enemies or capturing all villages or picking up experience. And finishing later may mean not getting a bonus. But either way I never managed to ever get more than 259 gold . But then I could have started the whole scenario over with a different plan.

All this has made me think of another important aspect of the game. Upkeep.

According to the manual, upkeep of non-loyal units is correlated to the unit's level and how many villages you own. A level 1 unit and 1 owned village means 0 upkeep. Level 2 unit and 1 village means 1 upkeep. And so on.

If one starts off a scenario with little or no villages, is able to recall 1 Marshall and 6 heros, (I actually had that at one time, believe it or not, it sounds killer especially with a couple of healers, but...), right off the bat it's going to cost 15 gold upkeep per turn.

This makes me wonder if while playing a scenario, it is sometimes not a good idea to let units level up, get experience yes, but leveling up might mean less gold for the next scenario.

It all seems like a balancing act. :-( And the RNG God looms over all of it. ;-)

Tad_Carlucci
Developer
Posts: 503
Joined: April 24th, 2016, 4:18 pm

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by Tad_Carlucci »

The minimum starting gold is set at the start of the scene, and determined by the difficulty. If you ever find a scene which starts with less, either post a replay here or attach one to a GitHub issue; it's a bug and should be fixed.

Yes, it's a balancing act on who and when to recruit or recall, when to advance, which villages to grab, and when, and whether to play through quickly for the early completion bonus or capture all the villages and delay to the maximum turns.

Those who worship the RNG properly learn how to reduce the effects by planning for all eventualities and not depending upon the outcome of a single roll of the dice.
I forked real life and now I'm getting merge conflicts.

gnombat
Posts: 290
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 8:49 pm

Re: Simple Question.... Carry Over Gold...

Post by gnombat »

CosmicBandito wrote:
February 15th, 2020, 8:49 pm
This makes me wonder if while playing a scenario, it is sometimes not a good idea to let units level up, get experience yes, but leveling up might mean less gold for the next scenario.
One of the quirks of the game is that a unit which is close to leveling up is often better than a unit which has already leveled up to the next level.

Consider this example: suppose you are getting close to victory in a scenario, and you have a unit which is level 2 but is close to leveling up to level 3. Usually it is better to avoid leveling him up in this scenario if possible - then you gain the following advantages:
  • The unit will have lower upkeep cost (2 gold pieces instead of 3) for each remaining turn in this scenario.
  • If you recall the unit in the next scenario, he will have lower upkeep cost for each turn in that scenario until he levels up. (In most scenarios there are usually several turns spent grabbing villages, etc., before the main battle is joined.)
  • When he does finally level up in the next scenario, he will be healed to full hit points. This is a big advantage in the middle of a battle - you can afford to have him take a lot of damage early on because you know he's going to receive a full heal anyway.
  • There might also be an advantage in that the AI is often reluctant to attack a unit which is close to leveling up so that you have more control over when the battle actually begins (although this is highly dependent on the scenario and the AI settings it uses). EDIT: This trick may no longer work depending on which version of Wesnoth you are running - see this post for details.
The only disadvantage is that he will start the battle in the next scenario at a less powerful level 2 instead of level 3, but that will probably last only a turn or two until he gets his first kill (or if the unit has enough XP he might not even need a kill to level up).
Last edited by gnombat on February 16th, 2020, 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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