Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 19th, 2018, 12:52 am

The_Gnat wrote:
December 18th, 2018, 8:35 am
name wrote:
December 18th, 2018, 6:37 am
The naga fighter's movement and defenses are already quite different from everything else in the game. Quite agile too. And this new naga unit is far apart from the naga fighter in terms of attacks and durability without such a far reaching modification of movetype.
Yes that is true. I would say sand and fungus and flat are the only ones that really need improvement. I suggest flat at 40% as well so it is viable at poisoning land units and works on maps without water.
In which case its hp should not really be reduced so much. And while I support improved sand defense thematically, in terms of unit strength on most mainline maps, sand is just such a rarely used terrain that it's fairly meaningless to increase it.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 19th, 2018, 12:57 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 12:52 am
And while I support improved sand defense thematically, in terms of unit strength on most mainline maps, sand is just such a rarely used terrain that it's fairly meaningless to increase it.
If it's meaningless for balance but fits thematically, then we should do it.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 19th, 2018, 1:18 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 12:57 am
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 12:52 am
And while I support improved sand defense thematically, in terms of unit strength on most mainline maps, sand is just such a rarely used terrain that it's fairly meaningless to increase it.
If it's meaningless for balance but fits thematically, then we should do it.
Right, but it also shouldn't be considered much in terms of balancing the unit.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 19th, 2018, 5:16 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 1:18 am
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 12:57 am
If it's meaningless for balance but fits thematically, then we should do it.
Right, but it also shouldn't be considered much in terms of balancing the unit.
It has little value for balance but overall it is very important thematically because users are expected to believe that there is some sort of alliance between the Dunefolk (i.e. Desert people) and Naga who are usually associated with swamps. Thematically the sand defense is important to demonstrate the unique role of this particular naga and the environments he lives in. :D

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 19th, 2018, 7:13 am

And I'm not saying the naga shouldn't have good sand defense. My point really is just that I don't want other parts of the movetype to be left the same as the Naga Fighter's because of improved sand defense. Also, I noticed that I originally somehow missed the Cave and Frozen terrains, so adding those in I would still prefer a movetype similar to:

Code: Select all

terrain defense,movement costs:
    castle=50%,1
    cave=40%,2
    coastal reef=70%,1
    deep water=50%,1
    flat=40%,2
    forest=50%,3
    frozen=20%,2
    fungus=50%,2
    hills=50%,3
    mountains=40%,5
    sand=50%,1
    shallow water=70%,1
    swamp=70%,1
    village=40%,1
If everyone thinks sand should be 60% or even 70%, then fine - it doesn't make much of a difference either way in terms of balance.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 19th, 2018, 8:28 am

I support those stats! :D

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by name » December 19th, 2018, 4:41 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
December 18th, 2018, 8:35 am
I suggest flat at 40% as well so it is viable at poisoning land units and works on maps without water.
A naga that still serves a role in a map without water, will either no longer be a water specialist or will be overpowered.

If you want poison on land, then swap out the herbalist's uninteresting mace attack for a poison attack of some kind. Possibly a ranged attack, like maybe that green vile he is holding up in his unit portrait contains some concentrated noxious substance meant to be hurled at the enemy like a grenade. As mentioned earlier, some of the people(s) the dunefolk take inspiration from in the real world hurled ceramic incendiary grenades filled with crude oil (a precursor to molotov cocktail essentially). This could be a variation on that theme which fits the unit's field of knowledge in lore and offers the faction poison on land so that the naga design can remain naga (a water specialist).
Edwylm wrote:
December 18th, 2018, 6:37 pm
when you look at the other unit descriptions it makes it more clear. they have brute strength.
And the naga has venom and speed which those others mostly lack.
Xalzar wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 12:15 am
On the topic of bite attacks, my 2 cents consideration is that other mainline units which use fangs to attack have usually 2 strikes. It makes sense: such method of attack is normally powerful but not repeated often (better finish your enemy quickly and not risk injuring your head).
How would you feel if the fang attack had 2 strikes with marksman?
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 7:13 am
My point really is just that I don't want other parts of the movetype to be left the same as the Naga Fighter's because of improved sand defense.
[...]
I would still prefer a movetype similar to:
Those stats would make it so effective on land it could work as a regular land unit. while being incredible in the water.

How about more like this:

Code: Select all

terrain defense,movement costs:
    castle=50%,2
    cave=40%,2
    coastal reef=70%,2
    deep water=50%,1
    flat=30%,2
    forest=50%,2
    frozen=20%,2
    fungus=60%,2
    hills=40%,3
    mountains=40%,5
    sand=60%,1
    shallow water=60%,1
    swamp=70%,1
    village=40%,1
Compared to your proposal-- improved forest movement, and fungus and sand defense, while reduced coastal reef and castle movement, and shallow water, hills and flat defense. It's capability overlaps the dunefolk on sand but is weaker than them on hills and stronger than them on moister terrains they are unfamiliar with like forest and fungus (as well as fully wet terrains, of course, with a special emphasis on swamp).

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Edwylm » December 19th, 2018, 6:48 pm

name wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 4:41 pm

And the naga has venom and speed which those others mostly lack.
Xalzar wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 12:15 am
On the topic of bite attacks, my 2 cents consideration is that other mainline units which use fangs to attack have usually 2 strikes. It makes sense: such method of attack is normally powerful but not repeated often (better finish your enemy quickly and not risk injuring your head).
How would you feel if the fang attack had 2 strikes with marksman?
they have speed depends on the how you want it. snakes have a fast and long reach when they strike. so you could give it a firststrike or do to it being "faster" it has a higher chance of hitting the enemy.

But you did forget that about my other statements about giving naga fangs. in other words it needs to be smaller than the average naga, being big would hinder the fangs. when looking through zoology most venomous/poisonous creatures are smaller compared to their predators or prey. since currently the nagas are bigger than humans and they probably eat things smaller than themselves. (Also not why don't the other nagas use their venom too if its better than the tech?) evolutionary terms they wouldn't have fangs that contain venom merely because they have no need to use them.

The only ways I would think is that these naga use their fangs would because they would have "primitive traits" and be much like goblins to much respect to fitting into the lore. but you could have 2 separate species of naga one that is more primitive and smaller than the other being the current naga, this might be a bit messy in fitting with lore.

if we want it to be about the same size as the other nagas then it would need to be a spear.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by name » December 19th, 2018, 8:12 pm

Edwylm wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 6:48 pm
since currently the nagas are bigger than humans and they probably eat things smaller than themselves.
The lore says the naga are in fact small. Look at the last line of the naga fighter's description: "They are small, and somewhat frail in form, but often much more nimble than their opponents." And that is for a melee soldier, with significantly greater durability than this new, lighter naga unit.
Edwylm wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 6:48 pm
(Also not why don't the other nagas use their venom too if its better than the tech?)
It is not better. The two swords of the naga fighter do much more immediate damage than the proposed fang attacks and potentially give it better survivability (since it can parry or shield itself with them somewhat). Poison is also ineffective on undead and largely so on any creature with regenerates. The naga ringcaster is rather a ranged fighter like the merman hunter, that uses its weak but venomous bite to try to ward off attackers that rush into close quarters or to poison those who are similarly poor in melee.

It is similar to the question of why the drake clasher does not use fire breath even though it technically has this ability.
Edwylm wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 6:48 pm
evolutionary terms they wouldn't have fangs that contain venom merely because they have no need to use them.
That is not really how evolution works. Formerly useful features do not disappear immediately when they are no longer useful. And if they retain some usefulness still, they may be preserved indefinitely if that use outweighs the biological cost of maintaining them.

Humans have evolved the ability to make a tightly closed fist out of their hand to work as a bludgeon (whereas other primates can deliver an open handed slap at best). It doesn't matter that for the longest time now, we could fashion and wield weapons that are much more effective at this, we still retain the ability. Similarly, we can still swim (also unusual amongst primates) even though we have rafts, boats and now ships. We can climb even though we no longer live in the trees. We can speak even though we now have writing and wireless communication.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Xalzar » December 19th, 2018, 8:36 pm

name wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 8:12 pm
It is not better. The two swords of the naga fighter do much more immediate damage than the proposed fang attacks and potentially give it better survivability (since it can parry or shield itself with them somewhat). Poison is also ineffective on undead and largely so on any creature with regenerates. The naga ringcaster is rather a ranged fighter like the merman hunter, that uses its weak but venomous bite to try to ward off attackers that rush into close quarters or to poison those who are similarly poor in melee.
Why don't they use the ring in melee then? Just brainstorming... :twisted:
name wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 8:12 pm
It is similar to the question of why the drake clasher does not use fire breath even though it technically has this ability.
There's a reason for this, that being the cumbersome armor and possibly their code of honor or caste rules or something like that (not unlike their wing treatment). :eng:
name wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 8:12 pm
That is not really how evolution works. Formerly useful features do not disappear immediately when they are no longer useful. And if they retain some usefulness still, they may be preserved indefinitely if that use outweighs the biological cost of maintaining them.
Correct. And since our Nagas are considered natural creatures (and as such they answer to natural laws and magic cannot be included as reason), if we want venomous fangs we should be prepared to add in the lore that all Nagas are venomous (and some of them do not use their fangs as a weapon) or that different subspecies of Nagas exist in the world, some with venom, others without it.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 19th, 2018, 9:47 pm

Xalzar wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 12:15 am
It's maybe not a serious proposal - and perhaps it doesn't fit the Indian theme of this unit -; you can work on it or not, as you want. Just throwing my idea in the mix since we're brainstorming
I appreciate your comments :) I think you make a valid point and also after some testing (particularly on more water based maps) I have found the Naga as a OP unit and therefore believe 2 strikes is a must have.

In order for the naga not to throw off the balance, particularly through its ability to strike from shallow water and 70% defence with a near definite chance of poisoning the enemy.

This is then further combines with a notable ranged attack (better than most mixed fighters) to create a multi purpose unit that crushes everyone, is hard to kill, and dominates the water because of its poison attacks on melee. In order to get this unit of a water village it takes at least 3 other water units all whom receive significant damage. Realistically it is better to just ignore the naga unless you have a ranged unit to attack it with.

Now of course good strategy can combat this but regardless of strategies this unit is OP because of its defences and formidable poisoning and attacks

EDIT:
name wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 4:41 pm
A naga that still serves a role in a map without water, will either no longer be a water specialist or will be overpowered
I definitely agree. I believe we need to either get rid of the poison or significantly reduce the land utilisation.
name wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 4:41 pm
If you want poison on land, then swap out the herbalist's uninteresting mace attack for a poison
I wouldn't support this because the Herbalist is already arguably the best unit in DF in nearly every deployment. The addition of anything further would easily make it OP.
name wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 4:41 pm
Those stats would make it so effective on land it could work as a regular land unit. while being incredible in the water.
Any stats that give it any significant role on land will make this unit OP. I like your stats and in particular the reduction in flat to 30% that is much better.

I believe though that slightly worse on land would be better. Currently the naga could camp in the forest or Hills and poison enemies wgile still receiving 50% defence. But I support your overall stats. :D

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 20th, 2018, 1:07 am

Xalzar wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 8:36 pm
name wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 8:12 pm
It is not better. The two swords of the naga fighter do much more immediate damage than the proposed fang attacks and potentially give it better survivability (since it can parry or shield itself with them somewhat). Poison is also ineffective on undead and largely so on any creature with regenerates. The naga ringcaster is rather a ranged fighter like the merman hunter, that uses its weak but venomous bite to try to ward off attackers that rush into close quarters or to poison those who are similarly poor in melee.
Why don't they use the ring in melee then? Just brainstorming... :twisted:
A chakram has no grippable surface - its entire outer edge is sharpened. It might be usable in melee if you put your arms through the hole (which you'd probably be doing anyway in preparation for throwing), but unless I'm missing something, I don't think it would be very effective.

(And for the record, I still support poison on the Herbalist/Alchemist.)
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Edwylm » December 20th, 2018, 1:35 am

name wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 8:12 pm
The lore says the naga are in fact small. Look at the last line of the naga fighter's description: "They are small, and somewhat frail in form, but often much more nimble than their opponents." And that is for a melee soldier, with significantly greater durability than this new, lighter naga unit.
That is true but the naga fighter is also indirectly indicated are young nagas The young warriors of the naga aspire to the day when they merit their second blade from naga warrior description. Also the race as a whole does not state they are small Although nagas are somewhat frail in form, they are often faster and more nimble than their opponents. But this is subjected as there is no clear indication about morphology/biology. also note they might not have the "hight" but they would have a much greater length which doesn't help the case on size. Also reptiles tend to continue growing... which also doesn't help.
name wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 8:12 pm
It is not better. The two swords of the naga fighter do much more immediate damage than the proposed fang attacks and potentially give it better survivability (since it can parry or shield itself with them somewhat). Poison is also ineffective on undead and largely so on any creature with regenerates. The naga ringcaster is rather a ranged fighter like the merman hunter, that uses its weak but venomous bite to try to ward off attackers that rush into close quarters or to poison those who are similarly poor in melee.

It is similar to the question of why the drake clasher does not use fire breath even though it technically has this ability.
which you have constricted your own point. if there is a more effective method you go with that. and you also pointed out its for self defense this might work. but i can't see it heading towards enemy units that are more armored and well armed. example bowman, covered in leather armor or cheaper armor with a short sword. i can see if the bow man charges the naga but not the other way around.
the naga needs to know the weak spots to avoid damaging its own fangs. which a weapon you don't really have to worry as much.
Also depending on the venom if its very dangerous its more of a certainty a person will die. king cobra venom takes about 30mins to kill a person.

the drake clasher and other similar lines well its the odd one out. nagas have 2 other lines, hunter and guardian lines.
Also it is stated in the naga hunter that nagas are resistant to poisons so basically anything can go its a game so things need to be balanced to a certain degree.
name wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 8:12 pm
That is not really how evolution works. Formerly useful features do not disappear immediately when they are no longer useful. And if they retain some usefulness still, they may be preserved indefinitely if that use outweighs the biological cost of maintaining them.

Humans have evolved the ability to make a tightly closed fist out of their hand to work as a bludgeon (whereas other primates can deliver an open handed slap at best). It doesn't matter that for the longest time now, we could fashion and wield weapons that are much more effective at this, we still retain the ability. Similarly, we can still swim (also unusual amongst primates) even though we have rafts, boats and now ships. We can climb even though we no longer live in the trees. We can speak even though we now have writing and wireless communication.
lol seems like you yourself forgot how evolution works. it took humans about 4million years from tree dwelling to walking on foot. even then the human feet evolved quite fast. however tech evolves faster than the functionality of the human body. But a interesting fact to give is when humans started to cook their food it took a short time for them to be unable to digest blood/raw meat. evolution doesn't happen within hundreds of years. but there are certain features that can change within of tens of thousands of years.
Also most animals know how to swim, how well thats the main thing.

how long do you think naga's evolved? and how long they developed tech? but this is complicated because nothing in irl history resembles a naga.


As i have stated its possible that certain naga hatchlings are more diverse than other races. venom baring nagas could be a recessive trait. i know some people are able to wiggle their ears which is a very primitive trait. most humans cannot wiggle their ears. This might help with reasoning why they are able to live in many environments and explain.

I am merely trying to bring out flaws that might contradict.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 20th, 2018, 1:43 am

It isn't difficult to come up with a justification for pretty much any of the variations being discussed here, so getting into the weeds of things like bringing up evolution is counter productive.
name wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 4:41 pm
Those stats would make it so effective on land it could work as a regular land unit. while being incredible in the water.

How about more like this:

Code: Select all

terrain defense,movement costs:
    castle=50%,2
    cave=40%,2
    coastal reef=70%,2
    deep water=50%,1
    flat=30%,2
    forest=50%,2
    frozen=20%,2
    fungus=60%,2
    hills=40%,3
    mountains=40%,5
    sand=60%,1
    shallow water=60%,1
    swamp=70%,1
    village=40%,1
Compared to your proposal-- improved forest movement, and fungus and sand defense, while reduced coastal reef and castle movement, and shallow water, hills and flat defense. It's capability overlaps the dunefolk on sand but is weaker than them on hills and stronger than them on moister terrains they are unfamiliar with like forest and fungus (as well as fully wet terrains, of course, with a special emphasis on swamp).
That was why I originally gave it some negative resistances as well. I'm getting tired of what feels like debating in circles about this though, and it's largely pointless until we have a unit sprite anyway.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 20th, 2018, 3:25 am

Yes debating evolution and naga mythology is not a productive discussion.

Also from the DF discord discussion they have come up with an entirely different proposal for the Naga and a number of balances which I believe they intend to suggest when they have finished them.

As it is currently we are merely going in circles and if we want to get any where we need a clear idea of what we want the naga to be. In that way at least we will be able to compare it to the naga they come up with and decide what works best.

Currently I think the best proposal is probably name's defences and movement costs combined with Pentaractogon's previous stay suggestions.

Can we all please comment on this and then we can decide 2 strikes or 3 based upon how balanced we think the unit is.

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