Northern Rebirth: 5a, The Pursuit, the two revenants.

[Danquebec]

I’m very confused.

I started with a Longbowman, a Dwarvish Scout, and my hero, a Peasant.

How can one kill two revenants with *that*? The only way I see is trying over and over again until the revenants miss almost all their hits and our units hit almost each times.

Why did the campaign give me these units? I read the .cfg file and I don’t quite understand how it is supposed to choose the units it gives me. Is it normal? I had much stronger units. Many fugitives, a dwarvish lord, many dwarvish steelclads… But it gave me that.

[beetlenaut]

I think the scenario designer probably assumed you couldn't get this far unless Talin was level-3 (I wouldn't have expected it either), and he also probably assumed you would have the arch mage. (What happened to him?) Those two can sometimes win by themselves, so the other two units are mostly random. I suppose this should probably be changed, but it can't happen soon: 1.10 is not being modified any more, and 1.11 has a freeze in effect. For now, you have my permission to go into debug mode and remove one of the revenants. (To do that, type a colon (:) to get a command line, then type debug. Right click on a revenant to remove it, then type :nodebug.)

[Danquebec]

Oh, thank you beetlenaut, I didn’t know about this feature. I am glad you told me that, since I liked this campaign a lot so far and it will allow me to continue.

I lost the archmage in a stupid move in the last scenario. ><

[Wesbane]

I started with a Longbowman, a Dwarvish Scout, and my hero, a Peasant.

The issue is known since 1-07-2009. It counts as unusual game play style. Most of players doesn't experience mentioned problems because they strive for perfect results. You don't have Camerin the fire wizard. The campaign promise allowing various victory shapes however this feature was poorly implemented what results in various bugs. There is no need to get every reward, but in your case it makes campaign harder than it should be despite of fact that you didn't make huge mistakes yet. You have leveled troops in your disposal.
If you will continue playing like this surely you will encounter many Northern Rebirth bugs, maybe even those that can render game unplayable.
To avoid bug run there are two solutions:

• 1. You may play as everyone else collecting every advantage available in campaign.
  2. You may play in a fork of this campaign.

Downside of a second choice is that the fork not only handles mentioned by you issue, but also differs much from the mainline version. So you won't be able to claim that you won Northern Rebirth campaign and post feedback about it in its thread.

How can one kill two revenants with *that*?

You don't have to destroy them. In fact you don't have much time before enemy will mobilize forces against you. So, you only need to get past revenants as it is stated in objectives. Since you have two units it may be still doable at the cost of their lives. Put a unit that has chance of surviving the attack in such position that only one revenant can reach it, leader and second unit should stay one hex behind guards range. On next turn move second unit toward revenant that is still on it post and block the passage with the unit. Move your leader behind it. Shield the leader with first unit from the rear attack.
Also note that providing such information as game version, difficulty level and attaching start scenario save helps. The more detail you provide the better answer can be.

Why did the campaign give me these units? I read the .cfg file and I don’t quite understand how it is supposed to choose the units it gives me. Is it normal? I had much stronger units. Many fugitives, a dwarvish lord, many dwarvish steelclads… But it gave me that.

Code: Select all

        {RECALL_SUPPORTER}
        [role]
            race=dwarf
            role=follower
        [/role]
        [recall]
            role=follower
        [/recall]
        [recall]
            id=Camerin
        [/recall]

The code above indicates it is normal. You are suppose to start with supporter. If you didn't lose him since procedure responsible for it fails to ensure it presence pretty reliably. With Camerin a loyal fire mage. And a dwarf. First one from your recall list. If you don't have these units your leader will face revenants alone.

I think the scenario designer probably assumed you couldn't get this far unless Talin was level-3 (I wouldn't have expected it either), and he also probably assumed you would have the arch mage [...]

False. Campaign was aimed on allowing various victory shapes.

About "The Persuit" I had originally designed it (as much of this campaign) so that you don't necessarily have to go down every passage to compete it.

Source: Northern Rebirth Going Mainline

For now, you have my permission to go into debug mode and remove one of the revenants.

Completely irrelevant for the problem. Doesn't answer the question. Entering debug mode is not a solution.

[...] I didn’t know about this feature. I am glad you told me that, since I liked this campaign a lot so far and it will allow me to continue.

Yes, by using this feature you can complete any campaign in no time. But as always your game your rules.

[beetlenaut]

Completely irrelevant for the problem. Doesn't answer the question. Entering debug mode is not a solution.

That's rather rude to say without trying it. Actually, it's the only solution. Use debug mode to start The Pursuit and give yourself a scout and longbowman. If you try to follow your own instructions at this point, you will find that they are impossible. If do manage to get past the revenants, please post a replay!

[Wesbane]

That's rather rude to say without trying it. Actually, it's the only solution.

You are right. Gathering as much information as possible before posting is always good. In this case you simply assumed that I lack expertise to make statements on this matter even such without guarantee of success, but in the other hand what else you could think about criticism on proposed by you solution if I didn't elaborate it further.
I perceived your solution as bad for following reasons:

• 1. The original question was:

  How can one kill two revenants with *that*?

  Where that mean a force composed of Longbowman, Dwarven Scout and a Peasant. While this is posted in strategy section I assumed that it is about how to deal with certain strategic situation without replaying last level. Not how to artificially fix the situation. Acceptance of your solution as valid by thread author has proven that I was wrong.
  2. Proposing debug mode as solution is a clear message that player is never wrong, only designer. Such approach distorts game. And creates situations that are impossible to achieve during unaltered game. There is absolutely no way that anyone accept Tallin would survive this fight. Aside from that there is already a feature that allows correcting mistakes in helpless cases. Restarting from previous game save.
  In other words suggesting usage of debug mode as problem solving tool equals to statement:
  There is no problem. There is debug mode.
  3. Proposing debug mode as solution enforce fixed results even if that was not designer intention.
  In campaign you have created, Dead Water, there were some minor glitches, but then when request was made to change something in campaign you decided to add possibility to the player to command corpsies. Without thinking about it further you have applied the revision. However while you can obtain them, they are absent in campaign mechanic. They can take a part in conversations as normal soldiers and use items including, but not limited to flaming sword. Same problem exist in Northern Rebirth. Of course there are much more possibilities, but while they were poorly implemented if anyone will use them it will produce bugs. Again however this is not a problem while no one is exploring different routes.
  I was interested in this particular strategic situation since completing this level in such circumstances would expose bugs. It would be a bug run an event that leads to a chain of bugs. Who like who but developers should be interested in this that their campaigns would be played in as many different ways as possible to detect and remove all possible issues. Employing your solution prevented this depriving campaign maintainer of valuable feedback.

If you try to follow your own instructions at this point, you will find that they are impossible.

Yes, that's true my instructions don't really fit since I didn't remember the corridor length. However this is responsibility of a player that wants help to provide as much detail as possible as I stated earlier with such basics as game version, difficulty level and a starting scenario save. Compare with any of Maiklas3000 threads. This makes getting help easier.
Regardless of it the merit stays true you don't have to destroy revenants but only get past them as it is in objectives. And in given situation player has a required minimum power to achieve success. I did it on first try when I positioned my troops in right spots. Although this plan may fail. Please note that saves attached are created using debug mode so they are only usable for testing the case of getting past revenants nothing else. Game version is 1.13 (1754), what means that Northern Rebirth includes latest edits.

Strategic overview:

[taptap]

I do not understand how you (Wesbane) can get worked up about the possibility to do the pursuit with very limited unit lineup, etc. when it is the imo worst scenario in whole mainline. I approve all warnings about the danger of saveloads / debug-mode, but in pursuit there is no balance and it is completely dependent on previous knowledge and / or saveload and / or use of immortal units - in fact it forces you to recklessly expose what would usually be your most precious units (non-recruitable healers), played normally you may well end up using up even the huge treasure handed out, because travelling in the corridors takes so darn long. And the whole campaign has so many glaring balancing issues, it is the only campaign that grants you immortal units for a reason, that I don't quite understand, how anyone can argue that all is well. Of course debug mode isn't the solution, but fixing the bugs (e.g. gold carryover in all multi-faction scenarios) and rebalancing Northern Rebirth would be.

[Danquebec]

@Wesbane
I appreciate your advice on trying to get past (the objectives, however, in French, said something along the lines of “Beat the two Revenants”, not “Try to get past them”), which I intent to try.

However, I also appreciate the information beetlenaut gave me about debug mode. If anything else fails, this allows me to continue the campaign. And obviously, I don’t intent to use this feature for everything: there would be no point in doing that, I might as well create a campaign that tells me I won right from the start.

Oh, and sorry about having provided little information. I’m new to the forum and didn’t think any more information would have been helpful. I was mistaken.

[beetlenaut]

NR-5aGetPast.gz [28.8 KiB]

That's crazy! I tried exactly that, but the revenants always chose to kill Tallin 'cause, you know, he's the leader. Maybe the AI behavior was changed between 1.11 and 1.13.

Of course debug mode isn't the solution, but ... rebalancing Northern Rebirth would be.

I agree that NR needs some serious work. It's just a boring grind most of the time.

[Wesbane]

[...] in pursuit there is no balance and it is completely dependent on previous knowledge and / or saveload and / or use of immortal units - in fact it forces you to recklessly expose what would usually be your most precious units (non-recruitable healers) [...]

Not true. The scenario is very easy by it defective design. Narrow and long passages aren't difficult to defend. Enemies need to be triggered to attack, you never have to face more enemies than two at a time, and there is only one case when they come from more than one direction. For first time difficulty is 3. When you know the level it drops to 1. What makes scenario very boring and time consuming. From the start player has crushing advantage over AI that grows in each turn. In fact it is so huge that you don't need any of treasures available there except one white mage. And the only reason for it is that otherwise you couldn't fulfill victory conditions. Also you may kill draugs with peasants or blast evil sorcerer in one turn. This last trick is the hardest, because it requires long series of successful counter attacks from the master of death.

I do not understand how you (Wesbane) can get worked up about the possibility to do the pursuit with very limited unit lineup, etc. when it is the imo worst scenario in whole mainline.

Personally I would pick Old Friend for this title because The Pursuit has at least interesting concept despite of being most buggy level in whole campaign. Whereas Old Friend is what it was intended to be – a very bad scenario.
Nevertheless as I stated already in point 3 this is about acquiring valuable feedback. If this scenario as whole campaign will be played only in one way. That is achieving perfect results it issues will be never exposed and fixed. Developers do not read the code if there is no hard evidence that something is wrong.

And the whole campaign has so many glaring balancing issues, it is the only campaign that grants you immortal units for a reason, that I don't quite understand [...]

This is a balancing feature. It makes game easier as pointed out earlier at Campaign challenges topic.
As for balancing issues it seemed they are not obvious enough for those who can do something about it.

Of course debug mode isn't the solution, but fixing the bugs (e.g. gold carryover in all multi-faction scenarios) and rebalancing Northern Rebirth would be.

It doesn't seem so. Apparently no one really cares about it. In development version of Wesnoth campaign was changed. The easiest difficulty level was removed, and first scenario was modified. Map, dialogue and starting positions in attempt to get a feedback on course of future alternations. While this shifts are controversial to say the least no one posted anything about it.
Moreover there are those who enjoy the campaign much and those who can't stand it. However any of them didn't wrote anything of use in its thread lately. One or two sentences stating that campaign is so cool that it doesn't need any changes or that is unplayable junk without any information that could support this claims are hardly an input that could improve it.
Not to mention that Northern Rebirth is the only mainline campaign available in two different versions. Yet despite of fact that fork of the campaign has all known issues fixed and many of core scenarios modified it receives lack of attention.

If anyone would be interested in altering Northern Rebirth in someway or preserving in current state the only thing that needs to be done is to choose version he feels is better, play it and provide meaningful feedback in its thread. Containing comment on the experience preferably with reasoning behind it and replays from the game.

(the objectives, however, in French, said something along the lines of “Beat the two Revenants”, not “Try to get past them”)

In original it is Get past the Revenants.
While destroying the Revenants and getting past them are two different things probably you should report this as an error in french translation as you did before for Legend of Wesmere campaign.
On side note I find it strange that french language doesn't have dedicated topic as some other translations.

However, I also appreciate the information beetlenaut gave me about debug mode. If anything else fails, this allows me to continue the campaign.

Primary function of debug mode is to test scenarios in various situations although it can be used to workaround some bugs. Additionally usage of it in some circumstances will cause problems instead of solving them.
There are also more potent debugging techniques that can be utilized for working around bugs like code injections, but it isn't about strategy so I won't write more about it.

Oh, and sorry about having provided little information. I’m new to the forum and didn’t think any more information would have been helpful.

Your description of a problem was good. But as I wrote it is nice to have an info about game version, difficulty level and a save because it helps to get better answer. It makes a difference in which wesnoth version you are playing. Currently there are three supported versions:

• Wesnoth 1.10 – current stable
  Wesnoth 1.11 – future stable (1.12)
  Wesnoth 1.13 – future development

That's crazy! I tried exactly that, but the revenants always chose to kill Tallin 'cause, you know, he's the leader. Maybe the AI behavior was changed between 1.11 and 1.13.

Maybe, but that would be really odd. As you know AI always attacks units easiest to kill. Most probably because of necessity of exposing a leader to attack longbowman must be so badly wounded that it would be considered a better target than peasant.

[taptap]

For a reason I wrote "previous knowledge" as the main point, when I first played the pursuit I used up most of the treasure by negative upkeep (levelling too many units up from L1 to L3) to a point where the end of the campaign might have become impossible simply because walking around in the pursuit took so long and I wanted to take up good positions from all sides for the final room only to suffer the major disappointment that is the final fight against Malifor. I don't know much about the fork, I thought the whole point of the fork is the evil branch (in which I have little interest) although I notice you changed the very situation we are talking about in this thread to "7. In Pursuit invading team always counts four units: leader, supporter and two most effective against skeletons."

With regards to balancing the campaign is doing fine until scenario 4, which hands out way too much experience, but it isn't easy to see what can be made about it. In the Pursuit it hands out tons of gold on top of it. A very easy fix to dialogue and balancing issues would be removing the treasure from gameplay and move it completely into dialogue until you hand it out towards the end. Say, change it from gold to precious ore that needs processing first, but that gets lost shortly after processing. This would instantly fix the major issue with Old friend, the scenario, where you have almost unlimited resources (though lack the staging area to effectively deploy), yet are supposed to play defensively and not to waste the treasure. If you sit on a huge, yet unprocessed, treasure the attack and your defensive play suddenly makes sense. For all the multi-faction scenarios there is a bug in gold carryover (when I last played) that gives you the gold for each village AND each faction when finishing early - completely unbalancing what is left of the campaign if you finish Eastern Flank early - this really should be obvious for everyone who did play the scenarios.

[Wesbane]

For a reason I wrote "previous knowledge" as the main point, when I first played the pursuit I used up most of the treasure by negative upkeep (levelling too many units up from L1 to L3) to a point where the end of the campaign might have become impossible simply because walking around in the pursuit took so long [...]

Overrecruitment is a part of poor planing. Where to overrecruit is to hire more troops than you can efficiently employ on battlefield. Every experienced player knows that numbers aren't worth much in narrow tunnels. I doubt that if you would play any dungeon level now you would do that mistake.

I notice you changed the very situation we are talking about in this thread to "7. In Pursuit invading team always counts four units: leader, supporter and two most effective against skeletons."

Yes, because as it was pointed out long time ago currently there is too much left to chance at the beginning of The Pursuit. You may have well suited for the task, leveled force on your recall list, but it can be not initially deployed. Although personally I never had troubles with it because I recruited exclusively dwarven fighters. And most players have Camerin to the end of a game.

With regards to balancing the campaign is doing fine until scenario 4, which hands out way too much experience, but it isn't easy to see what can be made about it.

Not really. Infested Caves holds a record of the highest density of villages. One village per nearly every 12 hexes. It is hard to move a unit without stepping into one. What is pushing out the challenge from To the Mines scenario, because of huge gold bonus received.
As for Clearing the Mines there is nothing really wrong with this scenario although it could be a way more interesting. Anyway there is a plenty of options to fix it, but all of them depend on how much players would be interested in preserving the original design.

In the Pursuit it hands out tons of gold on top of it. A very easy fix to dialogue and balancing issues would be removing the treasure from gameplay and move it completely into dialogue until you hand it out towards the end.

Taking into account how long it takes to get dialogue translated modifying it should be considered only if this is the best possible solution. Also disappearance of a treasure from The Pursuit removes the only reason to finish it early.

About the fork:

Evil branch completion was the main, but not only point of the fork. Additional goals were as follows: fixing any discovered issues and various improvements to campaign mechanic. The battle size reduction for a couple of first levels was added quite recently.
All of this have been achieved. The issues you have written about were also handled long time ago. Since version 1.0.7 of alternate campaign you will always have a treasure worth of at least 3000 gold pieces. No matter how much gold you spend or did you or not plunder Malifor fortress.
Fielding an extremely large force in Clearing the Mines scenario is less of an issue, because gold bonus for Infested Caves is lower and Pursuit is harder. Losses among veteran force are unavoidable.
In Old Friend were implemented many ideas from scenario feedback thread. Fork also uses new gold carryover.