GambCiv • A civ-like Wesnoth add-on

[earlyraven]

First off, I want to commend you on this awesome project. Good work so far, and I hope you continue to improve it. With that said, I tried it out and have some comments, bug-reports, and suggestions to share with you (I should note, this is using -- Latest stable version - 1.0.1 (beta) , with Wesnoth 1.11.)

Cost issue -- Bridge costs more than terraform -- seems unrealistic:
Bridge - 5 gold, 10 resources
Terraform (water to land) - 3 gold

University idea:
Modify University to not require action points, and give exp to units at start of turn (eg. like villages heal at start of turn).
--perhaps even, reduce exp, but allow units adjacent to gain exp too.

University - bug:
--If study at university is last action taken, then the displayed action points at start of turn on screen (red text on map), will remain the same as it was at end of previous turn, on the new turn. It will, however, adjust to what it should be after player performs an action on the new turn. (I believe this same behavior occurs with a few other actions too).

I didn't notice any change when upgrading university (I chose green magic). -- for dark magic, extra option of recruit is available, but I can't see what "green magic" option does.

Make it clear that studying at university uses up action points (if it does). Eg. add (-1 action point) to "Study at the University" menu item.
--perhaps, for convenience, have an option to state how long to study (e.g. study x times, study until level up, study until almost level up).

Boat, unit description:
It shows up as "Lawful" in help book, but "Neutral" on map. -- I know this doesn't really matter though... but should be simple to fix.

Couldn't figure out to fish with fishing boats.

Rail roads:
Wesnoth's pathfinding algorith doesn't find the best path considering railroads use no movement. Also, if told to cross over a railroad, unit will use 2 movement points, but if told to move one square (onto railroad), than another square (off it), it will only use 1 movement point. -- This might be beyond the control of this mod, through.

Crops idea:
Add more crop options, limit based on season. (Eg. high yield crops in spring, summer, fall, low yield crop in winter).

Granary/Barn idea:
Granary/Barn supports storage of x amount of food each. Food beyond said amount will "rot," resulting in loss of food. Ex. 25% of unstored food will rot each turn. (Adjust % rot to whatever you think is appropriate--perhaps even dependent upon season). Starting castle may provide some storage capacity. Perhaps instead of new building, can simply be an added feature of huts (villages).

It wasn't available in Add-ons within game in Wesnoth 1.11. Is it meant to be? Anyway, I had to download and extract it myself... just a minor inconvenience.
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Also, I only tried this with local game (where I controlled all players, and against AI). I couldn't help but notice the AI just pretends nothing has changed and just sends out his peasants to atk, and doesn't build anything. I know making a decent AI for this mod would be complicated, and so I understand if you won't implement this until much later, I just want to know, is it planned to have this in the future?
-- A possible, simple, AI temporary solution could be the following:
AI plays with different rules. Instead of no longer being able to recruit after turn 1, AI can recruit in the future. To prevent AI rushing player with a swarm of units, the following sequence holds:
Turn 1: --unchanged unless you feel like disabling for AI... AI recruits 4 peasants and sends em off to explore/attack (already implemented)
Turn 2: -- AI can no longer recruit unless it is a special turn number, as listed below.
Note: To compensate for AI not farming/haresting, AI receives a growing amount of "bonus gold" each turn. This continues to grow until a certain turn number is reached.
Turn 4: AI can recruit basic units. (Eg. mage, peasant)
Turn 7: AI can recruit a few more types (Eg. in addition to previously available, swordman, bowman.)
Turn 10: AI can recruit even more types (Eg. "tavern units")
... every 3 turns AI has new Unit types available for purchase, until all units are available to AI.
Once AI has all units available, AI Is allowed to recruit on any subsequent turn.
Note: AI should be able to recruit units for only gold, or if not, should be given the food resource it needs.
In all other aspects, AI plays just as it would on a normal game.

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Finally, until a viable AI is released, is anyone willing to test this mod with me in online multiplayer? I'd be available over the weekend (Thursday to Sunday, EST).

[Gambit]

Cost issue -- Bridge costs more than terraform -- seems unrealistic:

Perhaps a bit unbalanced. However bridges have some extra value in that they do not clog waterways for boats and merfolk. I'll reduce the cost a bit.

Modify University to not require action points, and give exp to units at start of turn (eg. like villages heal at start of turn).

I want players to be able to do multiple per turn.

I didn't notice any change when upgrading university (I chose green magic). -- for dark magic, extra option of recruit is available, but I can't see what "green magic" option does.

It allows you to use universities like recruiters, but they turn peasants into elves instead of humans. I know this game desperately lacks documentation.

Couldn't figure out to fish with fishing boats.

Right click them on deep/ocean water. Shallow water won't work.

Wesnoth's pathfinding algorith doesn't find the best path considering railroads use no movement. Also, if told to cross over a railroad, unit will use 2 movement points, but if told to move one square (onto railroad), than another square (off it), it will only use 1 movement point. -- This might be beyond the control of this mod, through.

Nothing I can do about this.

Add more crop options, limit based on season. (Eg. high yield crops in spring, summer, fall, low yield crop in winter).

This seems overly complex.

It wasn't available in Add-ons within game in Wesnoth 1.11. Is it meant to be? Anyway, I had to download and extract it myself... just a minor inconvenience

I've been away from Wesnoth, and didn't realize the new add-on server was up yet. I'll upload it this weekend!

Also, I only tried this with local game (where I controlled all players, and against AI). I couldn't help but notice the AI just pretends nothing has changed and just sends out his peasants to atk, and doesn't build anything. I know making a decent AI for this mod would be complicated, and so I understand if you won't implement this until much later, I just want to know, is it planned to have this in the future?

An AI for this is beyond my skill and free time.

However, for solitaire play you should use the "Barbarian" faction for the AI. Give them a low starting gold and a high income. Higher income will mean a harder difficulty. The barbarians receive occasional bonuses, and can recruit every turn.


Thank you for playing, and thanks for the feedback! It's been a long time since I've gotten any ( ). I will investigate the bugs you reported this weekend, as well as fixing the thing with universities not properly displaying their cost.

Maybe I'll put some more work into finishing the documentation too...

[Tillanz]

This is great! I had a quick go playing against a Barbarian AI as suggested.

Specific suggestions:
I really love the action point system, but I don't want to have too many of them - it devalues them. If you have only a few, then the important trade-offs are better emphasized. Perhaps there should be some setting the host chooses to control how many actions you get per turn?

I also felt there was a lot of clicking. Many turns I would find myself spending 10 actions planting tobacco. What I would suggest (especially if people regularly have 10+ actions per turn) is a way to sink lots of actions at once for better efficiency. So for example you could have a farmhouse building that lets you spend a variable amount of actions for a corresponding food/gold payoff on the following turn.

More general thoughts:
In a typical game of wesnoth, on a smallish map e.g. Isar's Cross, you probably control 5-10 units on your turn. If you spend 5s/unit making decisions, it's possible to play reasonably quick turns.

This mod has actions on top of units, and they probably have a similar time-burden in terms of decision-making (especially for new players). I would have a think about where you would want your number of units/actions to peak, and adjust the design/balance accordingly. For example, Wesnoth naturally caps with a fixed number of villages and upkeep so your growth slows as you get further into the game. This mod has the potential to see accelerating growth as you get further into the game, especially if players sit in their bases and try to build up. Also, Wesnoth naturally has incentives for players to leave their base, expand and attack (i.e. villages). This aggression & competition also helps to put a cap on player growth.

So you may also want to look at ways to incentivise players to leave their base and attack, and also ways to slow down player growth as their armies/resources become bloated -- maybe players should get fewer actions the more units/buildings they have??

Food for thought. Thanks for making the mod. It shows a lot of polish and thought (I love the 'what is this?' help options), and has great potential.

[Gambit]

I also felt there was a lot of clicking. Many turns I would find myself spending 10 actions planting tobacco. What I would suggest (especially if people regularly have 10+ actions per turn) is a way to sink lots of actions at once for better efficiency. So for example you could have a farmhouse building that lets you spend a variable amount of actions for a corresponding food/gold payoff on the following turn.

So there's already one tier of that for each major resource. The extra efficiency is kind of something you have to save up for. I'd like to have an even more expensive third tier as well.

Try gold mines instead of tobacco farms if you have mountains nearby. (Right click on the gold mine to operate it after construction). If you don't have many mountains, look for cave terrain. You can farm mushrooms for a lot of gold.

Fishing boats are more efficient to get food.

And lumbermills cause nearby forests to harvest for double wood.

So you may also want to look at ways to incentivise players to leave their base and attack, and also ways to slow down player growth as their armies/resources become bloated -- maybe players should get fewer actions the more units/buildings they have??

Yeah, now that you mention it, a downside for being too large would be nice. It would have to be customizable and vary by map size... I'll put some thought into this. Maybe just incentives to make war would be enough.

Maybe if that third resource gathering tier cancelled out the AP boost of huts...

[Tillanz]

So there's already one tier of that for each major resource. The extra efficiency is kind of something you have to save up for. I'd like to have an even more expensive third tier as well.

Ah! I did have fishing boats. But I think we are talking about different types of efficiency. You are talking about efficiency in terms of resources/action, but I am talking about efficiency in terms of clicks/turn, i.e. interface rather than game mechanics.

Another way to look at it would be clicks/decision. If I decide that I want to spend half my actions on gold, I would rather be able to just click once and spend all those action points at once to execute that decision. Say I could select to spend N number of actions whenever I clicked plant crops - maybe you could have the peasant auto-farm the N closest valid hexes to the clicked point?

[IgnisSolus]

THE addon for Wesnoth. Really, really, really fun. The only thing I can suggest is a catapult - much like a thunderguard, one powerful attack per turn, but it can destroy enemy fortifications directly adjacent to it once per turn, no matter where the nearest hut is, or bringing a peasant into the battlefield.
This addon is very fun to roleplay with, too, such as a new king wanting to colonize, say, a dangerous marsh sends an expedition (you) and you build a city/village/outpost right there.
This is all done great. I barely play any other addons anymore. Thanks for reviving Wesnoth for me. (also, about the catapult - I'll see if I can make the sprite in spare time)

[Gambit]

Thanks for the kind words. They are very appreciated.

Role playing is one of the things that excites me most about these sorts of add-ons. I've seen people that play just to build. I like to just solo against the AI and build. They will save and load the same game over weeks and create huge empires where they aren't fighting to destroy each other. They just have little skirmishes over resources. That's another reason for the action points system. I wanted to make sure that people playing the game that way are switching their turns frequently enough that it doesn't get too boring.

The catapult idea is actually pretty cool. Regarding custom units, I have plans to make a second era. So there will be the era that currently exists where you can play the game with anyone even if they don't have GambCiv installed. And an "extended" era with lots of neat, new units.

The reason for this is that I think it's very important to have a version of GambCiv that can be played with people that've never heard of it. That's the way this add-on spreads. Your friends don't have to download it to try it. Even random people you don't know can join your game and play. That's also why I've put a lot of work into the help systems.

But like most of my ideas, I need time and motivation, and I need to be able to flesh out these ideas fully before I start on them. One of the biggest problems with "Gambit's Empire Builder" is I was so easily excited. So it got developed quicker, but it was also a mess. I was just throwing in new features without thinking. GambCiv is a lot more polished a product, and I want to take my time and make sure that when I do the "extended" era, I do it right.

Custom art for that is certainly welcome. I've been wanting to get some of Zerovirus's stuff into an add-on for ages.

[IgnisSolus]

Yup. Me and my friend have just made a big map, with Gambciv and two Barb teams (with a homebrewn rule - no killing Barb leaders. They stay forever.), and we have hotseat sessions every week, much like DnD nights.
Also very nice to know that this addon, while not being extremely actively developed, still has the creator being helpful and planning for updates.

[Gambit]

Have you guys hit the 25 action point cap yet? I have very little feedback at that kind of late stage in the game.

I figure at some point, combat and movement start to drag on pretty badly and I might need some sort of solution.

[IgnisSolus]

Not yet. I'll try getting into a few GambCiv games today, might see if people reach that.

[Gambit]

So when 1.12 gets here, this will be a thing at the game setup screen:

[Captain_Wrathbow]

Holy crap, you can do stuff like that with UMC in 1.12?!

I have got to get back into WML... so much has changed.

[Gambit]

Yeah I was very happy to stumble across this on the wiki.

[IgnisSolus]

It's great!
Also, people seem to dislike longer than ten minute games. Hard to get anyone to play online.

[Gregor]

Hi and thanks for all your work doing this great add-on. It's great to combine wesnoth with economy and new strategies

After a few hours of a FFA, some thoughts came while playing and here is my feedback on some points

Interface et speed of the game :

Wesnoth is usually a slow game and GambCiv adding new features is by consequence slower. With four players, you need to have a good book waiting for your turn to come.

- Since planning moves is implemented in wesnoth, could it be possible to decide in advance some actions ? For instance, creating crops and tabacco takes a long time and since it's something you do all the time, it would be nice to create them when it is not your turn. Same with buildings maybe. With a system like this, when your turn comes you already dealt with those issues.

-Auto-mining and auto-fishing could be great. Like an option in the building that can be activated and desactivated. Combined to the previous idea of planning things in advance, the player would have until the last moment the choice of putting it off. It would let to the player the entire choice of using his APs while saving time.

-A possibility to read the rules all the time would be great too. Like a right-click on a hex when it's not your turn, select "read rules" option. Thanks to that, newcomers could read descriptions of features and rules when they are not playing. Nothing slower that someone trying to understand the game when it's his turn.

I agree with the idea of Tillanz of a farm building where you could say "I want x tabacco and y crops". Same with the idea of earlyraven of doing the same thing with the university. If you want to spend 10 AP to have a marshall, you can get bored of clicking 10 times.

Strategy and balance :

Terraforming is one of the most efficient strategy in this game. You just put your ennemy into water and kill him, feeding the fishes.

The Peasant Armageddon hurts a lot : one peasant in the ennemy base and everything disappear. On this point, it think that destroying a mine and the whole moutain beneath is a bit too much for one action. Destroying only the mine should be enough since moutains are so important.

Usually the counter to wandering peasants is to build everything around a hut. If it a watchtower, you just gained a whole line of walls and water.

I think game is well balanced like that. The only bad thing happens when people start to have a lot of huts and then a lot of walls. How do you attack a castle surrounded by water ? Using fishes and the defender will just terraform and remove the water. IgnisSolus idea of a catapult would be nice even if i would rather call that a battering ram since it destroy adjacent things. Poisoning hex would be fun also to harass soldiers camping ( you can find an example of poisoning hex in Era of High Sorcery by Elvish Pillager). A siege weapon like a catapult firing from 2 or 3 hexes away with a 12 attack like the tower could be good too to oblige the defender to fight on open ground to destroy the catapult/Trebuchet/scorpio/ballistae

To counter those catapult, rams and poison, a new unit cleaning poison and casting an one hex community protection around it would be nice. It would have to be weak and expensive to still allow the "put your ennemy into water" strategy to work.

Going back to a few previous post : i think skeletal dragon, yeti, fire dragons and other units like this would bring a lot of fun. But as it has been said, they should cost a lot and maybe be made in another building that the university to avoid a university race.

Conclusion :

A very very cool era, a bit slow and complicated at first but with the AP system, you have access to a whole new great gameplay. Keep going !