Legend of the Invincibles

[Battlecruiser_Venca]

just a question: will be the drake faction also given that advancements? It would be good if we had a LotI era

[Crow_T]

If drakes then saurians and mermen and ....

I initially reported that the axe wasn't making sound, I was wrong- Letha's (nerd warning) staff isn't making a sound. Also in chapter 5 it's not draining?

[Dugi]

About LotI era - it would not have to be an era, just a MP modification (on 1.11), that would make it compatible with most MP scenarios and eras that are based on default era units (that would be needed, because the usual PvP would be pretty much unchanged if units could advance past level 3, when I have never seen a level 3 unit in PvP unless the exp modifier was set to 30 or something). It would merely need a small piece of code and a small change of the way LotI works, but nothing too hard.
But the major problem is that there are still two factions that are almost untouched by these changes, Northerners and Drakes. Knalgans, Loyalists, Undead and Rebels lack six advancement paths, Woses, Ghouls and 4 mermen. I have absolutely no idea what they should advance into. How might it look. Well, maybe about one merman unit, I have an inspiration. And they would not be much useful in the campaign, there is a little use for mermen, woses are not quite likely to follow humans (you didn't have them even in elvish campaigns) and the leaders were not perverted enough to create Ghouls.
So in theory, I might do the Woses and Ghouls somehow, making from it a somehow limited version of the prolonged Default era, without the usually useless mermen and without the Northerners' and Drakes' factions. It would be useless for PvP, but might be useful for survivals and other MP scenarios and campaigns. It would not be done immediately, but it could be. Would you like it?

I initially reported that the axe wasn't making sound, I was wrong- Letha's (nerd warning) staff isn't making a sound. Also in chapter 5 it's not draining?

Because I have made an update. The staff was overpowered, so I replaced its drain with leech that has heals only a tenth of the damage instead of a half. Sorry if it ruined your build, but it won't matter after 5 anyway.
I also fixed the problem with no sound for axe, so it is possible that the staff is not making a sound, because I have not looked at that. Thanks for reporting.

[lirien]

Hi, a few comments and a couple of problems with udpates.

Comments:
I am now playing chapter three.
It is a nice campaign, with an interesting plot, fun scenarios and a refreshing recruitment strategy.
However I think that after the first two or three scenarios it becames a bit too easy. The four gold for each village granted in many of the initial scenarios, the high number of turns and the 100% gold carryover allow ammassing too much money, way more than needed to buy the expensive loyal troops. I am currently with over 7000 gold and 34 loyals, much more than i bother to move around each turn.
Maybe it would be more challenging if at least the number of turns to reach the objective was shorter.

1st problem:
I was running a very old release, 2.3.7. I updated from the initial menu to 2.4.10 while I was in the middle of a scenario (I mean: turn saved with 2.3.7, game quitted, some time passed, reopened the game and made the update, and then reloaded saved game and played the new turns with 2.4.10).
After having played few turns with the new release, Lethalia killed one unit reaching the full XP needed for an AMLA advancement. She got 3 HP, death count for soul eater went +1, and nothing else. That is, I was not offered the choice between AMLA advancements for staff, net, fairie fire etc. What happened?
Is there a way to keep going with my heroes' advancements without having to stick to less interesting 2.3.7? I do enjoy all the changes in units and features of later versions too much to go back!

2nd problem:
I also tried to install the very recent 2.4.11 version. No better for what concerns Lethalia advancements. Moreover I have read it should be possible to promote lancers to lunatic knights and to get gems by scrapping unwanted items. I happen to have a lancer near promotion but when I have him killing a unit the only options appearing are the old ones: great knight/paladin. I did not figure out how to scrap items either, I got no "scrap" entry in any menu...
How do I access the new advancement paths with existing units, if possible? And what about scrapping items?

[TheZ]

lirien, you need to restart the current "battle" you are in or advance to the next one in order for any and all changes to take effect. they will NOT take effect in the middle of a "battle"

[RainerT]

Hi,

I didn't read the thread for a while.

@RainerT
So you suggest to remove lightning from them? Okay, I might do that.

I don't know all the fire spells, but it should be reduced to one single target and one area spell. The same thing with the cold spells. Both spells are area spells. One is definatly enough. You also should reduce the number of redeems needed to open a new ability. I'm not a fan of redeem at all, but that way it would be more like it should be, that redeeming is one aspect of the game and not all about it, like it is at the moment.

You should also remove the fire spell from Efraim. If he wants one, he can get one anyway. In the same way removing Lethalia's axe would be a good idea. An Axe doesn't fit with Lethalia anyway. There could be an advancement option for a faery sabre. By the way, I think the available advancements for Lethalia and Efraim should be different. For example, Efraim shouldn't get area spells, while Lethalia should have limited melee options.

About the resistances, I don't have so much experience with the gameplay/items strategy, just specify which units should get these extra resistances, and I'll do it if it won't be too much.

Either all units should stay at their stabdard resistances or all should get improved resistances with there final advancement. I prefer the later one, because the enemies do a lot of damage in chapter 7 and it won't be less in later chapters.

@arobinson
I understand that you are fed up with the redeem balance issue. I just wonder why you haven't told it earlier.
A small attempt to change your mind: If your suggestion to return the balance is valid and has a potential to work, it should make it relatively balanced again. Less retaliation kills imply less experience taken, that implies worse abilities of survival and that forces your leaders to take cover and use normal attacks to gain experience and defeat the enemies.
The redeem stuff is explained bellow.

I still have to agree arobinson. Your argument, would be valid, if it was an rpg and your only characters were Efraim and Lethalia. But in BoW ordinary units play an essential role as well. At the moment there is a great unbalance between main characters and ordinary units. Less damage and standard resistances around +/-10 for Lethalia and Efraim would give ordinary units a more important role and that s the reason people play BoW and not an rpg.

Why nobody replied about the possibility of cooldown time for redeem?

I think there is an easier solution. All the endless scenarios should have a time limit. It should be generous enough that you don't have to hurry and you don't get a bonus for early finishing.

[Dugi]

@lirien Okay, I might reduce the village gold and turn limits in chapter 3.
The updates will not take place immediately, they might take place partially when you install them, but you might need to complete the scenario to get most of them. Some changes may take place after more than one scenario, old stuff is sometimes kept for long.

@RainerT You were absent for much too long. Quite a few things have changes from then. I have changed the damage type of Efraim and Lethalia's lightning spells to lightning. Regarding the resistances, I have added an advancement for resistances to all melee units, but it might be useful to add some dodge or something to all those who do not have it,, as you suggest.
During your absence, I have also changed the system, but I am not quite sure how well it works atm. I have altered the experience requirements for advancing, and it is now almost impossible to get more than 40 advancements, and not quite likely to get more than 30 advancements (I expect like 160 max hp by the end of chapter 8 ). That means investing into more than 6 'skills' is not quite likely, and you have to choose what to improve (and you cannot have brutal defence, brutal melee offence and brutal ranged offence at the same time). Redeem requires less redeems to improve it, but can be used only once per 3 turns (so nobody will be using it all the time, no matter what). Absorb 3 and absorb 4 are impossible to obtain. Please keep bashing me only after verifying that this still does not work.

And I don't know what is your problem with Lethalia's axe. She walks the world for millenia, during that time, she must have realised that some melee combat skills might be useful and must have found some time to learn to use the axe. If I was living for millenia, I would surely have learned many less important skills, like brawling, fencing, playing a musical instrument, juggling, singing, latin language...
Efraim was formerly a fencer, Lethalia was formerly a wizard, but why the hell should he limit himself to weapon-related skills and she limit herself to magic during all these millenia? There is no logical reason.

But good idea about adding some huge turn limits and no carryover to some scenarios. It should stop overly boring endless milking.

[TheZ]

i like the idea of having "separate" advancement paths per unit but i feel that some should be converging more than they are, in particular is the assassin line, i feel that the 4th job advancement should be a choice between the shadow walker and exterminator. while the master at arms should get the shadow walker and another advancement that is more along the lawful line. My idea for this would be something like thus
Combat Virtuoso, 70 hit points, lawful, 9-6 saber (melee blade), 15-3 mace (melee impact), 30-2 crossbow (ranged pierce), beyond the normal more attacks/stronger attacks for them he would be able to learn to "infuse" the attacks with magic giving them marksmen or magic attack attributes. movement would be the same. Defense ability in hexes would be 10% less than the shadow walker but resistances to melee attacks would be 10-15% higher (better at combat but not dodging). description could be something like "On occasion a Master-at-Arms reaches perfection with the art of the saber and takes on any challenge. While overcoming various challenges many Combat Virtuosos come to use a small mace as a secondary weapon for the occasion when a saber just wont cut it, though being of noble origins they often prefer the saber as there main weapon. It is rumored that the best and most skilled even come to incorporate magic into the fighting style."

[Dugi]

What was not clearly visible in that picture is that Shadowalker was changed to be less assassin-like (without changing the appearance). He has now a sword and a crossbow, and he is completely neutral. I could do it because Assassin has now his own advancement.
But the Combat Virtuoso is not a bad idea, but have no idea how might he look. There is already a unit whose appearance is based on the appearance of Master at Arms (Warlock).

[Battlecruiser_Venca]

BUG: non-human soulless has only it's default AMLA (in MP scenario it advances as it should after AMLAing once, but not in SP, it only AMLAs)

[Ugmpag]

some random comments on an excellent campaign
Looks like a possible typo in the latency descriptions for the new exterminator line of items. all list a requirement for Exterminator's Sword, but 117 is actually a polearm called Exterminators Scythe.

The cooldown means you can no longer use the madmans potion to snag 2 redeems per turn, but the endless scenarios with auto-spawning enemies let you just park by a spawn point and get bored out of your skull milking experience.

I agree that you end up with a ridiculous amount of cash in chapter 3. It has been a few months, but if nothing has changed, I remember having thousands of gold and sacrificing units that I got tired of dragging around.

With all the undead created by the various plague items, the Souless may be a good candidate for a unique advancement path. I gear them up with all the non-weapon items, and they are great for swarming mages with a leader or warlord support. I guess the most obvious track would likely be a zombie of some kind. Most of the specials could be based on there advanced state of putrefaction. Having a poison attack would be nice, possible advancing to dark aura. An infect AMLA is another path, as well as despair or horrid, even throw in murderlust as the top amla (eating brains gives them a boost) . No big improvement in physical attacks, just contagion related amla's to make it a more unique unit. The unit could be antisocial with low physical resistances to help balance the specials as well as having low terrain defense. Basically a unit that is easy to lose, but valuable to keep.

Would a mace be appropriate for the Virtuoso? Not sure if it has continuity. After years of practice mastering the dexterity, speed, and precision of the saber, picking up a bludgeon seems out of character. They seem like completely different temperaments and skill-sets. What would be the back story?

[TheZ]

Would a mace be appropriate for the Virtuoso? Not sure if it has continuity. After years of practice mastering the dexterity, speed, and precision of the saber, picking up a bludgeon seems out of character. They seem like completely different temperaments and skill-sets. What would be the back story?

That is actually what i thought at first but then i gave it some more thought. Think about it, you wander for years after mastering a saber looking for more places to apply your noble blade, in the land of Wesnoth. Whats in the land of wesnoth that is hard to be damaged by a blade? Undead are really the only thing that a blade doesn't work on so wouldn't you over the years start to learn to use something that works WELL on them? hence a light(small) mace which is effective on undead. Now I'm not saying there particularly efficient with it, but it gets the job done. Also the years of combat they adopted more armor hence the better protection from blade impact and pierce, cause what does the majority of units in wesnoth use to attack? (most of them attack via some physical form and magics are some what "rare")

As for the picture, I was thinking you could have a light armored unit like a lv 2 bowman without a helm wielding the saber in one hand, have the other hand either on the side or holding the outlaw mace, with the crossbow on the back. if he is not holding the mace its hanging off the belt. Could possibly be in chain mail armor though that might look to much like the knight of magic, and i would think he would keep the fancy noble hat, or get an even fancier one.

[Dugi]

Thanks for the bug reports, fixed them, they will be uploaded later.

Regarding the insane gold in chapter 3 and endless milking, some altered turn limits are already planned.

Ugmpag's argument about Combat Virtuoso's mace is quite valid. An expert fencer would prefer a saw-sword with 'teeth' to fight undead over a clumsy mace. I cannot decide about it now, maybe you two should find an agreement.

I think that body based on Longbowman is not cool enough. But I can also draw something myself, it is just easier to use parts of other sprites. The torso will have to be drawn, and duelist's hat will be fine.

I have reasons why Soulless should advance into skeletons:
-logically, flesh will rot away after some time and only bones will remain
-I want the creatures created by plague to be able to advance into powerful units like others, not just finish after level 2
-units with many variations like zombies slow the game down; usually, the largest part of LotI save files are the variations of zombie units

[Ugmpag]

I have reasons why Soulless should advance into skeletons:

Sounds good. I see Battlecruiser_Venca already reported the soulless doesn't advance to anything else in the current release. I haven't played MP, so didn't realize that

in MP scenario it advances as it should

meant the soulless advanced to skeleton.

I am not completely sold on the idea of the master-at-arms needing another advancement path. I find part of the challenge of playing Wesnoth is the inherent strengths and weaknesses of the different units and learning how to best utilize them in combat. My concern is the addition of an impact attack would make the unit too much of a "generalist" and take away from it's uniqueness. The availability of powerful mace items as well as swords and crossbows combined with magic advancements has the potential of making the unit overpowered. With the plethora of crafted and dropped swords that give an advantage against undead you can already circumvent this weakness if you choose.

if it isn't a big mess of coding you might consider making a special sabre class of item separate from the swords. It would be focused on speed and accuracy, with a possible drop in damage for some items based on traditional fencing weapons like the foil, epee and sabre. The traditional weapons also hold the potential for a thrusting pierce attack. Something along that line would be closer to my perception of the unit.

[Dugi]

I haven't played MP, so didn't realize that... ...meant the soulless advanced to skeleton.

Regular Soulless, like those created from humans or orcs advanced to skeletons properly. Just the troll, dwarf, rider, fish, lizard, drake and bat variations didn't. The game worked slightly differently than I thought. All advancing is done differently in multiplayer in order to prevent it from hacking normal games causing Our of Sync errors. So I simply used the MP way of advancing in SP for Soulless (this, inconveniently, does not show the possible advancements in the F1 help).

if it isn't a big mess of coding you might consider making a special sabre class of item separate from the swords.

It isn't a big mess of coding. If there is like 10 types of weapons, it is quite likely that adding a new one means only copying and editing a part of the code. But a larger problem is that there are only two advancement lines of units that use sabres, Fencer's and Warlock's, that would cause these items to be relatively rare, and it would be pretty annoying to find sabres when having many usual Swordsmen and inversely. To me, it looks like a needless complication.