Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

[Altruist]

Grnk the Frail
Difficulty: medium
Version: 1.10.3

General:
As many have said before, this isn't an easy campaign. I think it was the campaign where I had to restart several scenarios most often. And yes, there is some railroading. But I didn't dislike the difficulty nor the railroading. If the author wants a story told and needs some railroading, fine with me. Especially if there are also quite many choices and sides to take and so many turnarounds in the story. And I do like the perspective of a small feeble intelligent goblin who despairs of his own kind, of the orcs, turns to the humans... just to find new sympathy for the straightness of orcs... while all the time is kicked around in a story much bigger than he feels himself.

It's also quite an evil (=splendid) idea that sometimes you are playing a faction and trying your best to keep them alive and to level them up, just to find out that you have to fight them at a later point.

I surely appreciated the roleplay elements and I always like the non-standard-upleveling (some refered to it as AMLA). A downer is that Grnk looses some of his levels when he gets the wolf and again when he is confused. Perhaps this is intended but I feel any improvements made should be only temporarily taken away or there should be a choice or explantion which is embedded in the story line.

Here some comments to certain scenarios I have still in mind:

Flight:

Spoiler:

To be honest Grnk did not use the mine but went straight around south of the mines to the griffins. With some blocking of the approaching orcs, this worked a lot better for me than my 3 fails thru the mines.

Shadows:
No time limit allows infinite gold. I haven't used it but it's a flaw. It's difficult, innovative and positioning very important.

Hunting:
Loosing levels and thus HP and spear damage due to riding a wolf is a bit disappointing.

Disillusion:
All this turnarounds are surely crazy but great. It looks unbeatable at first (and then every few turns again) but as a matter of fact it works, pretty well even. It must have been a nightmare to balance this scenario but that was my impression: well balanced, very exciting and quite a challenge.

Shmaltupp:
Parked wolf still costs upkeep.

Chaos/Captured:
After loosing the wolf, all previous AMLA-uplevels seem to be gone and can't be regained. I think the blinks into future and past are a bit overdone and too many, a bit shortening might be good. Not sure how many times this scenario can automatically restart.

Spoiler:

I had 3 starts (NW-signpost, NE-signpost, N-signpost). Positioning of the peasants seems very important to lure the lizards and humans into fighting each other. A bit misleading was the intro of the 3rd start when the new given target was the NE signpost and the way to take was supposed to be "thru the swamp and lizards".
I found it quite impossible to get thru the middle of the swamp and took instead the same route as with the 2nd given eastern signpost. This worked so well that I realized that I could not only go to the signpost but killl off all lizards and following humans. Getting caught again, although not killed, felt a bit like "it doesn't matter what I do".

Prunes:
Nice retreat scenario.

Spoiler:

I discovered 5 different results for using the prunes:
1) fail
2) too far away
3) target petrified for ever
4) target teleported to a far away location on the map
5) targets attacks own faction for one turn
Did I miss one?

Wizards:
Well made, difficult but IMHO also well balanced.

Spoiler:

I was amazed how strong those wizards are as long as they stick to their defensive positions in the mountains while letting the enemies coming to kill them off one after another without leaving the strong defensive mountain hexes, staying in line with healers right next or behind them. Also good uplevelling. A small group of wizards and healers to support Grnk's group is needed, though, and there is also a good path for them.

So overall I am a great fan of this campaign and looking very much forward to part II.

[mattsc]

Hi Altruist: Thank you!! I am glad you enjoyed it.

A downer is that Grnk looses some of his levels when he gets the wolf and again when he is confused. Perhaps this is intended but I feel any improvements made should be only temporarily taken away or there should be a choice or explanation which is embedded in the story line.

It is indeed intentional and I tried to embed it into the story line, although maybe not in the most obvious place. If you look at the unit descriptions

Spoiler:

Grnk the Rider: As Grnk has no experience riding a wolf, he has to start just like any other new wolf rider, as a Level 1 unit with no experience. Due to his position on top of the wolf and its size, he also loses his pickpocketing and skirmishing abilities and cannot use the assassin's poison.

Grnk is, however, still the same person and retains his Level 2 leadership abilities as well as, due to his small size, the quick trait of the unit. On his wolf, he is much more impressive than before, thus avoiding the usual ridicule by villagers. He can now capture villages.

Confused Grnk: After recent events, Grnk is confused and perturbed and, as a result, has lost most of his advanced abilities. In effect, this set him back to being a goblin rouser, but without his previous charisma required to inspire leadership in others. When his wolf ran away, he also lost his bag with all his possessions, except for the purse with his money which remains securely attached to his belt.

On the other hand, Grnk's latent magical powers have finally emerged, resulting in a magical fireball attack. Unfortunately, the fireballs are impressive more in appearance than in effectiveness. Initially, that is.

I am aware of the fact that this is against normal Wesnoth conventions, but it's an intentional choice that I am not likely to change, just as some of the other evil choices I made, as you point out yourself.

Flight:

Spoiler:

To be honest Grnk did not use the mine but went straight around south of the mines to the griffins. With some blocking of the approaching orcs, this worked a lot better for me than my 3 fails thru the mines.

Hmm, interesting. I meant to make that impossible, but I've learned several times now that smart players find ways to play scenarios differently than I had intended. Which is great, IMO.

Shadows:
No time limit allows infinite gold. I haven't used it but it's a flaw.

Yeah, somebody else pointed that out too. I really need to change that.

Disillusion:
All this turnarounds are surely crazy but great. It looks unbeatable at first (and then every few turns again) but as a matter of fact it works, pretty well even. It must have been a nightmare to balance this scenario but that was my impression: well balanced, very exciting and quite a challenge.

Thanks! And yes, balancing was hard...

Shmaltupp:
Parked wolf still costs upkeep.

Oops, that should not be. I'll fix that.

Chaos/Captured:
After loosing the wolf, all previous AMLA-uplevels seem to be gone and can't be regained. I think the blinks into future and past are a bit overdone and too many, a bit shortening might be good. Not sure how many times this scenario can automatically restart.

I was wondering whether it was too much as well, thanks. I will think about that. The number of restarts is fixed, everybody will see the same here (although the number, order and types of weird events vary). Maybe that's something that could be changed.

Spoiler:

I had 3 starts (NW-signpost, NE-signpost, N-signpost). Positioning of the peasants seems very important to lure the lizards and humans into fighting each other. A bit misleading was the intro of the 3rd start when the new given target was the NE signpost and the way to take was supposed to be "thru the swamp and lizards".
I found it quite impossible to get thru the middle of the swamp and took instead the same route as with the 2nd given eastern signpost. This worked so well that I realized that I could not only go to the signpost but killl off all lizards and following humans.

Hmm, interesting, not quite how I intended it (again), although this time I knew it was an option.

Spoiler:

You are supposed to go through the swamp, but a little bit to the NW, rather than following the road.

Getting caught again, although not killed, felt a bit like "it doesn't matter what I do".

Here's another for you for that one. You're (well, Grnk's) supposed to feel that way.

Prunes:
Nice retreat scenario.

Spoiler:

I discovered 5 different results for using the prunes:
1) fail
2) too far away
3) target petrified for ever
4) target teleported to a far away location on the map
5) targets attacks own faction for one turn

Did I miss one?

No, you found them all (I think there will be a couple more in Part 2 though). Except maybe this (not really a separate effect):

Spoiler:

The prunes never work on enemy leaders, and if you try, the leader will make fun of Grnk for it.

Wizards:
Well made, difficult but IMHO also well balanced.

Spoiler:

I was amazed how strong those wizards are as long as they stick to their defensive positions in the mountains while letting the enemies coming to kill them off one after another without leaving the strong defensive mountain hexes, staying in line with healers right next or behind them. Also good uplevelling. A small group of wizards and healers to support Grnk's group is needed, though, and there is also a good path for them.

That's how I do it too. It works very well as long as one doesn't become impatient.

So overall I am a great fan of this campaign and looking very much forward to part II.

Thanks for all the comments, they're much appreciated. Unfortunately, Part 2 is still a long way off as this AI non-sense I am currently doing is taking up almost all of my Wesnoth time...

[legithorir]

I'm just going to give a feedback : i've loved playing this campaign, really, the RPG style is amazing, i'd have loved more specifications to be more like a true rpg, but that's still a very, very, very good campaign!

[mattsc]

I'm just going to give a feedback : i've loved playing this campaign, really, the RPG style is amazing, i'd have loved more specifications to be more like a true rpg, but that's still a very, very, very good campaign!

legithorir: Thanks very much for taking the time to post this. I am happy to hear that you enjoyed it! As for making it more RPG-like, yeah, originally that was my plan. In the end it came down to not having the time to do that, so I settled for the current version. Maybe when I am "done" with my current project and (after that) get the second part of Grnk done, I'll get back to this.

Thanks again!

[ilicius]

When I try go to mission 08_Trap, game crash with "game_error: creating unit with an empty type field".
Using wesnoth 1.10.3
I also submit a save file just before crash (game crash after you speak with Koozhar o Rutburt).
Game also crash, when I try to load record.

[mattsc]

Hi ilicius. I don't have time to look into this in detail right now, but that error happens (among other reasons) when a scenario tries to "reuse" a side whose leader was previously killed. Did you somehow manage to kill the Dark Sorcerer in scenario Disillusion? If you did so without using debug mode, could you send me a replay of it, please? I was trying to make sure that that wasn't possible in normal gameplay, so if you did it, I need to figure out how to deal with it. (And if you did so by using debug mode, then you'll just have to go back and let him as escape, as the scenario was intended to play out. )

Let me know and I'll look into it later today.

[ilicius]

True I killed him, I knew he will apear, so I send few units to stop him and first turn after his appearance he charged them personaly.

[ilicius]

Here is record, I used few loads but no debug.
I think the easiest thing to solve this, is move unit little more far when he appaer or stop him from movement, to prevent him from doing suicide mission (he probable intented to attack them and return to his castle next turn, but forget that mage on open is pretty easy target).

[mattsc]

Here is record, I used few loads but no debug.

Thanks! It is always interesting to see all the ways to play a scenario that inventive players come up with that I didn't think of. And I mean that as a good thing, but it also means that bugs like this happen, unfortunately...

I think the easiest thing to solve this, is move unit little more far when he appaer or stop him from movement, to prevent him from doing suicide mission (he probable intented to attack them and return to his castle next turn, but forget that mage on open is pretty easy target).

Yeah, that would probably work. I did it slightly differently though by making sure that he never comes out or attacks at all. v1.0.6 (just put it on the add-ons server) contains that fix, but you have to start scenario Disillusion from the very beginning (load Grnk-Disillusion.gz, not the Turn 1 save) for it to take effect. If you don't want to play through the entire scenario again, you could also just go back to your save from Turn 20 (or so) and not kill the Sorcerer if/when he comes out. Thanks for the bug report!

While I was at it, I also implemented a turn limit for S5 Shadows, so that it is not possible to get unlimited gold there any more, as reported by some others.

[Rigor]

wot the... i lost the intro-scenario with my silly gobos and other retar....eh ruffians getting slaughtered. i guess there should be some kind of warning that some orcs suddenly start pouring through all corners when that bridge gets downed. i couldnt really start moving my important guys the turn the script got executed but i guess thats my own fault. what about some vills that might help to heal the wounds of my gang that has to retreat slowly on the way to the mountains?

[mattsc]

wot the... i lost the intro-scenario with my silly gobos and other retar....eh ruffians getting slaughtered. i guess there should be some kind of warning that some orcs suddenly start pouring through all corners when that bridge gets downed. i couldnt really start moving my important guys the turn the script got executed but i guess thats my own fault.

... but up to the point when the orcs show up, the bridge goes down, and Grnk enters the tunnel, you're doing everything exactly as the scenario is intended. There's nothing I'd do differently playing it up to that point, even knowing exactly what's going to happen.

what about some vills that might help to heal the wounds of my gang that has to retreat slowly on the way to the mountains?

Actually, I intended exactly that to be the challenge: you're vastly outnumbered, don't have many villages to heal and need to hold out while Grnk painfully slowly makes his ways through the mountains. There's only one thing you can use to your advantage: location. If you want to figure it out yourself, don't look into the spoiler tag:

Spoiler:

This scenario is set up so that you cannot win against the orcs. It's also stated (clearly, I think, but let me know if you disagree) that nobody but Grnk needs to survive. In order to hold out for long enough, you want to pull Gertburt's units back to the bottleneck behind the castle and play extremely defensively.

[ilicius]

I think that little complication in first mission is, when player dont know about orc and send his pillager forward over bridge(I done this myself, cause' he was nearly killed by one orc) and then orcs (and bandits) appear about two turn sooner, then Grnk can enter mine.

[mattsc]

I think that little complication in first mission is, when player dont know about orc and send his pillager forward over bridge(I done this myself, cause' he was nearly killed by one orc) and then orcs (and bandits) appear about two turn sooner, then Grnk can enter mine.

Ah, true. That seems so obvious now, why didn't I think of that? I need to think about how to deal with that (I cannot just make the orcs appear when Grnk gets across the bridge for other reasons, but I'll figure something out).

Thanks!

[Rigor]

i didnt let my other units survive, au contraire, even the expensive wolf went down!! i sent some units to the village defendes positions not on my path but the core troupe of clown orcs just ignored my attempt to chase the unimportant gobos (scouts did however becaused they could reach me - did you code somethign evil again? ). however, the tunnels are largely uninteresting from a practical point of view. there should be at least hills on the way to get to the griph faster, but as it is now it takes almost 10 turns while it can be done in ca 6. less labyrinth more straight passage? about the no-villages-on-the-way policy: fine for me, with some luck i could take out the lvl2 grunt by sand and 3 wolves with a distracto-gobo.

something else, much more important than that:

i cant proceed in scenario 2.

Spoiler:

i got poisoned while trying to heal and thats where i could never recover from. i have 1 gold and cant even kill a single rat. i cant join some outlwas because im not healed. i cant pickpocket because id die. i cant attack nobody and level up thus healing the poison because i would die or get locked away.

[mattsc]

(scouts did however becaused they could reach me - did you code somethign evil again? ).

Nope. This was written before I knew how to be evil in that way, so I had to do that (be evil) through the scenario design itself.

however, the tunnels are largely uninteresting from a practical point of view. there should be at least hills on the way to get to the griph faster, but as it is now it takes almost 10 turns while it can be done in ca 6. less labyrinth more straight passage?

But from my point of view, that's the whole point of this scenario. It takes Grnk that long to get through, how do I make my handful of bandits last that long against a huge horde of orcs? Now, you're a much better player than I am, so that sort of defensive play might be easy and uninteresting for you, but it is specifically set up in this way for that purpose.[/quote]

Same with Scenario 2 (and 3, in parts), the challenge as I see it is to figure out how to get through it with the very limited resources you have. If you ignore the warnings you got (or at least should have gotten if gathering information first before doing things) about not going to the quack doctor, you're gambling and the result might be (gasp!) that you have to restart the scenario. I tried to set this up a little in the way of some old-style RPG games. Not as well as I would have liked, admittedly, but that's again the intended purpose so I am not going to change that. Sorry.

That' doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the feedback though, thanks much for that! Now back to messing with my other favorite 4-letter Wesnoth character...