Vulcan Portraits

[Zerovirus]

I suspect the reputable sources of biological and genetic knowledge as far as powershot is concerned amount to anime and/or fictional instances of Lego Genetics.

[powershot]

I suspect the reputable sources of biological and genetic knowledge as far as powershot is concerned amount to anime and/or fictional instances of Lego Genetics.

[johndh]

Sometimes it's better to have no back story, than to have one that makes no damn sense.

[powershot]

Sometimes it's better to have no back story, than to have one that makes no damn sense.

Please, I will make lots of campaigns about them, you may find out then.

[thespaceinvader]

No, it's not. Take a high school biology class, maybe you'll learn why not.

Ever dissected a Vulcan?

No. I have, however, studied human genetics to postgraduate level. Do you know what DNA helicase does? How about what DNA even stands for?

[powershot]

Ever dissected a Vulcan?

No. I have, however, studied human genetics to postgraduate level. Do you know what DNA helicase does? How about what DNA even stands for?

Well, lets leave it at this, Vulcans are internely much different than elves or humans. They have different tech and different zoology.

[artisticdude]

...zoology.

Umm... you mean anatomy?

[powershot]

...zoology.

Umm... you mean anatomy?

Sure! Animals,plants, all that stuff, all different for Vulcans.

[Obselescence]

I'm genuinely curious, powershot. Do you want this to be a viable faction in Wesnoth where people can point at the Vulcans and say, "I understand this. This makes sense."? You seem to want to make a campaign out of this concept, but I'm just checking. It'd be very nice if you could provide a clear answer as to whether you want the Vulcans to make sense.

Because, if not, we can leave it at that.

If so, however, there are fundamental problems that you simply aren't addressing.

More long upcoming.

Spoiler:

The fact of the matter is that your explanations for the Vulcans -- particularly the Vulcan-Drake... thing -- do not make sense.

Your explanation for how a Vulcan-Drake hybrid is possible boils down, essentially, to "A wizard did it." I really wish I didn't have to use that phrase, but to me, it looks like you're trying to sidestep an explanation by presenting it as too complex to be explained. I have a strong feeling that if we weren't to "leave it at this," you would not be able to present a credible argument (or at least one that'd agree with Biology) as to how this:



Is fundamentally different from a human or elf. Internally or otherwise. Such that you could claim a Vulcan head on a Drake's body is possible. To my knowledge, it's actually a recolor of an existing elf portrait, so that makes it even more of an uphill battle to explain to anybody at all that this thing isn't very similar to a human or elf.

But let's assume you have objectively made satisfactory justifications. Hypothetically. If so, you have managed to present it in such a way that, as far as I can tell, nobody in this thread believes it as a plausible justification. No matter how much sense you think you're making, if nobody believes you make sense -- then, well, functionally you're not making sense.

And that's a problem if you want your faction/campaign to be built on this faction taken seriously. A campaign especially would need a foundation of something credible. The Vulcan-Drake especially -- if absolutely nothing else in the Vulcan faction -- is so unbelievable that I could not take a campaign based on it at face value. Especially if there were then a pseudo-scientific explanation that "Vulcan genetics just works like that, okay?" I'd suspect at the very least that the person who made such a campaign/unit/faction doesn't know basic biology, and would need a great deal of convincing to take the rest of the package seriously.

That's not to say that the rest of the Vulcan faction isn't suspect (I'm still wary of underground trees), but the Vulcan-Drake just cannot be explained and will, in all likelihood, continue to defeat your attempts to do so.

And I think that's a symptom of a worse problem -- that you'd prefer to make increasingly implausible explanations for something rather than reconsider the decision entirely. This is going to sound like an ultimatum (even if it isn't), but basically, you really need to rethink having units as an end goal, such that the story has to play the most dangerous game of cosmic Twister trying to bend itself to the units (to the point of "Vulcan Geneticists make it possible!")...

Or else I really can't see you being taken seriously.

That's just my take on your plight, though.

Also I just want to say that your explanation of Vulcans has been changed (or conveniently expanded) at least three times in this thread alone, and that would probably make anybody suspicious as to how well this faction/campaign has been planned out.

[powershot]

Ok, The Vulcans uncomprehendable be a human unless it is a really upside down,logical,very imaginative human like me. This is the reason Humans,Orcs,some Elves, and dwarves hate Vulcans.

Lets leave it at this; Vulcans live in a different world than we do, a strange world.

[artisticdude]

Vulcans live in... a strange world.

Amen!

[Frogger5]

QFT

[Shinobody]

Those all are just minor nitpicks . Why?
Because it's Wesnoth.
We're talking about a race in world which has:
-Walking Trees (!) [?]
-HalfFish, HalfHuman hybrids (as CLOSE FRIENDS with normal humans) [?]
-pointy eared long lived humans, who may grow butterfly wings (and shine) if they'll choose way of magic; [?]
-six limbed reptiles, which breathe fire, and their children are humanoids and capable of reproduction themselves*; [?]
-to walking trees - walking rocks, too; [?]
-humanoid reptiles, completely unrelated to the ones above; [?]
-... and another humanoid reptiles, again unrelated, this time aquatic; [?]
-and a race which invented firearms, but haven't made any progress with design FOR AGES. Also, they haven't leaked design outside. Ah, they also have no cannons. But have rifles. [sarcasm]Makes perfect sense.[/sarcasm] [?]
None of above are ever explained, anywhere.
Yeah, I'm sure that Vulcans live in a strange world. It's called Wesnoth.
Powershot: I suggest changing explanation of vulcans and valkyries strange genetics to magic. Here it is normal.
All others: Backstory of race makes no sense, sure. Is full of holes, sure. But when critiquing, stick to these logic holes, okay? Because saying that this is not realistic in forum which has coined acronym"WINR" is... ridiculous.
*- this one makes some sense, since it explains why Dragons are extinct...

[Obselescence]

Walking trees I am okay with. They're at least internally consistent with the Wesnoth fantasy creatures and magic structure.

I really do not believe, though, that there is an explanation that doesn't make a drake body with a Vulcan head look much less than silly and/or impossible. To say nothing of the general paste-on-existing-unit mentality behind the Vulcan "head" (but that's by the by). :X

I mean, it's not even that within a structure of a world with magic and other theoretically impossible creatures this thing could be explained with "A wizard did it." I mean, I guess you could try. But it's still trying to pass off something that looks implausible and just sort of silly even for Wesnoth. I'm interested in what exactly powershot wants out of the community to reaction to this planned Vulcan campaign because I'm not sure he's going to get the reactions he wants if he sticks with design decisions like this (along with the overall idea of conforming the story to created units).

I mean, you're right. It's just part of a backstory that is already rather pocked with holes of one kind of another (which is why I think it's important for powershot to craft a straight story on these Vulcan fellows -- since the continuously shapeshifting story has implications for the faction as a whole), but the Vulcan-Drake as a concept is just particularly difficult to comprehend as a decision.

[Frogger5]

Those all are just minor nitpicks . Why?
Because it's Wesnoth.
We're talking about a race in world which has:
-Walking Trees (!) [?]
-HalfFish, HalfHuman hybrids (as CLOSE FRIENDS with normal humans) [?]
-pointy eared long lived humans, who may grow butterfly wings (and shine) if they'll choose way of magic; [?]
-six limbed reptiles, which breathe fire, and their children are humanoids and capable of reproduction themselves*; [?]
-to walking trees - walking rocks, too; [?]
-humanoid reptiles, completely unrelated to the ones above; [?]
-... and another humanoid reptiles, again unrelated, this time aquatic; [?]
-and a race which invented firearms, but haven't made any progress with design FOR AGES. Also, they haven't leaked design outside. Ah, they also have no cannons. But have rifles. [sarcasm]Makes perfect sense.[/sarcasm] [?]
None of above are ever explained, anywhere.
Yeah, I'm sure that Vulcans live in a strange world. It's called Wesnoth.
Powershot: I suggest changing explanation of vulcans and valkyries strange genetics to magic. Here it is normal.
All others: Backstory of race makes no sense, sure. Is full of holes, sure. But when critiquing, stick to these logic holes, okay? Because saying that this is not realistic in forum which has coined acronym"WINR" is... ridiculous.
*- this one makes some sense, since it explains why Dragons are extinct...

Yeah, when you say it like that, it makes it sound silly, but the same applies for all fantasy.

As for your comment about dwarves and firearms, firearms have always been a rather slow progressing technology throughout history. Today we still use revolvers, which is about 200 year old technology, cannons were used for much longer. Also, using cannons in caves sound like a recipe for disaster to me... And those weapons aren't even rifles. They're more like hand bombards.