give dwarves more options
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give dwarves more options
because they're the only ones with very few options. how bout berserkers becoming non berserker units with leadership or magic (i know people might think it's stupid, but hey! put it this way -> "dwarven berserkers who have been able to finally control their rage become [insert unit name] capable of hurling bolts of lightning aside from being considerable fighters")
the thunderer can also have an alternative option of becoming a less range oriented unit. same pistol stats but better melee attack
...any opinions? please make it as subtle as possible.
OH! by the way, orcs need more units ...don't u think? how bout giving the troll rocklobber and orcish crossbowmen advancements?
the thunderer can also have an alternative option of becoming a less range oriented unit. same pistol stats but better melee attack
...any opinions? please make it as subtle as possible.
OH! by the way, orcs need more units ...don't u think? how bout giving the troll rocklobber and orcish crossbowmen advancements?
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joshbosh321
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- Joined: May 14th, 2004, 10:10 pm
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lucienium
lucienium, welcome to the forums-- There is still a fair amount of talk about giving the dwarves some more attention. At the risk of sounding rude I'd reccomend searching the forums for 'dwarves' & 'Runemaster'. While your suggestions might (well, probably, to be honest) not get implemented the dwarves haven't been forgotten-- At one point there was talk of adding a 'Runemaster' line to the dwarves. This would be a line of fighters with a weak magical attack (to disloge evasive foes). When will you see this get implemented? Hmm, your Magic 8 Ball is as good as mine 
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I liked the flameguard a lot, what happened to him? A melee branch of thunderer would be intresting...
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I think someone disliked the graphics.Burnsaber wrote:I liked the flameguard a lot, what happened to him? A melee branch of thunderer would be intresting...
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Re: lucienium
...actually ...i was hinting for u guys to make the runemaster a usable unit but didn't have an idea where u'd be able to put them. and since berserkers are the only ones that don't further advance ...Shade wrote:lucienium, welcome to the forums-- There is still a fair amount of talk about giving the dwarves some more attention. At the risk of sounding rude I'd reccomend searching the forums for 'dwarves' & 'Runemaster'. While your suggestions might (well, probably, to be honest) not get implemented the dwarves haven't been forgotten-- At one point there was talk of adding a 'Runemaster' line to the dwarves. This would be a line of fighters with a weak magical attack (to disloge evasive foes). When will you see this get implemented? Hmm, your Magic 8 Ball is as good as mine
well, i was reading some of the older forum posts and read that some disagreed with having runemasters because the idea of dwarves having magic seemed a little odd. but isn't it that dwarves have always been associated with runic magic? (as opposed to elves that are associated with faerie/forest folk magic and humans with arcane/elemental stuff)
anyway, there was this art development forum also that had a new dwarven "line" that would eventually lead to arcanisters. the idea is nice but ...the level 3 and 4 advancement WAYYYY to powerful ...oh well ...just forget my suggestion then
...OH! by the way! when i said more options, i meant like human horsemen can potentially become any of 3 final units. it's cause, when u see a dwarven thunderer, u're already too sure that it can at most become a dragon guard. same with guardsman becoming nothing else but sentinels. humans have mages that can either become mage of light, silver mages, or great mages (i'm talking about their final advancements) same with horsemen and elves have archers and fighters that have 2 potential level 3 advancements each ...
wait wait ...
sorry, i take that back. dwarves shouldn't have leadership. first of all, can u imagine the thuderguard getting leadership bonus? they can potentially kill almost any drake or horsemounted unit with one shot (oh! guys, did u notice that dragonguards can kill a number of 1st and 2nd level units with one shot? ahehehe ...gotta love that guy). and anyways, dwarves are supposed to be semi-berserker people
but i still think they need a unit that uses magic (but not a mage type unit) ...runic magic that is
but i still think they need a unit that uses magic (but not a mage type unit) ...runic magic that is
sorry for the long post
well, here are somethings i picked up while reading the forums (checking possible changes, and other people's opinion) and while playing the game:
racial identities:
humans are diverse and have the most expensive mages
-they have 3 units have multiple advancement branches (i read somewhere that spearman is getting another advancement branch)
-i suggest giving them better defense when inside villages castles or giving them higher resistance since they are better armored than most of the other races
-by the way, has anyone noticed how valuable (and unique to the humans) charge is? use it often against mages, archers, drakes (ahehehe) and mounted units
...but NOT against undead
elves are hard to hit and semi diverse
-they have 3 units with 2 advancement branches
-they have insane defense on forests and mountains but doesn't really have good resistance against attacks
-they have average to above average defense elsewhere
-all of their units have both melee and ranged attack
drakes are offensive (clasher line exempted)
-melee and ranged attack don't differ much in power (sort of like the elves, only more powerful on both fields)
-they only have low-average defense everywhere
-they move (and kill) fast
-warriors, slashers and gladiators should get a level 3 advancement though
undead are nocturnal
-4 nightguants can probably kill an army of 6-8 equally leveled opponents
-same with spectre
-they basically dominate during the night and also, they have better resistance than most of the other races even though they have 2 obvious weaknesses
-drakes slaughter them ...hahaha
orcs are ...well ...they are unique in their own way
-they have units for each terrain
-they dominate the night second to undead
-their trolls allow them to fight even when far from villages
-they deal more damage but have less shots
-i think they need more units
dwarves ...well ...they have better resistance and slightly better defense in mountainous terrains but then again, being slow and having less advancement branches still set them back.
-i know i mentioned giving them more advancement possibilities, but i realized to make them more unique they shouldn't follow this multi branch trend of other races.
-how about just giving some of their units more attack options instead. for instance, dwarven fighters have a axe and hammer attack, but to make things more interesting, maybe the hammer attack should instead deal 16-1 damage instead of 9-2. the same with its advancements, make their hammer attack deal its damage in one shot(25-1 for steelclads and 35-1 for lords) doesn't matter if the total damage isn't as much as that of the axe attack because it will make the dwarves have more strategic options.
incase u don't know what i'm talking about, i posted something related to this in one of the forum topics in response to the question of another. http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 9187#49187
i'm sorry if i'm really pushing for this, but i just realized that giving them more advancement, a mage type unit, and/or a leader isn't very dwarven. having more attack options suits them more. aside from the above mentioned, maybe the thunderguard and dragonguard can also have an alternative range attack that deals only 2/3 of 3/4 the damage but has marksmanship.
any constructive opinions? i'd greatly appreciate any word from the the balancing team thanx in advance by the way
racial identities:
humans are diverse and have the most expensive mages
-they have 3 units have multiple advancement branches (i read somewhere that spearman is getting another advancement branch)
-i suggest giving them better defense when inside villages castles or giving them higher resistance since they are better armored than most of the other races
-by the way, has anyone noticed how valuable (and unique to the humans) charge is? use it often against mages, archers, drakes (ahehehe) and mounted units
...but NOT against undead elves are hard to hit and semi diverse
-they have 3 units with 2 advancement branches
-they have insane defense on forests and mountains but doesn't really have good resistance against attacks
-they have average to above average defense elsewhere
-all of their units have both melee and ranged attack
drakes are offensive (clasher line exempted)
-melee and ranged attack don't differ much in power (sort of like the elves, only more powerful on both fields)
-they only have low-average defense everywhere
-they move (and kill) fast
-warriors, slashers and gladiators should get a level 3 advancement though
undead are nocturnal
-4 nightguants can probably kill an army of 6-8 equally leveled opponents
-same with spectre
-they basically dominate during the night and also, they have better resistance than most of the other races even though they have 2 obvious weaknesses
-drakes slaughter them ...hahaha
orcs are ...well ...they are unique in their own way
-they have units for each terrain
-they dominate the night second to undead
-their trolls allow them to fight even when far from villages
-they deal more damage but have less shots
-i think they need more units
dwarves ...well ...they have better resistance and slightly better defense in mountainous terrains but then again, being slow and having less advancement branches still set them back.
-i know i mentioned giving them more advancement possibilities, but i realized to make them more unique they shouldn't follow this multi branch trend of other races.
-how about just giving some of their units more attack options instead. for instance, dwarven fighters have a axe and hammer attack, but to make things more interesting, maybe the hammer attack should instead deal 16-1 damage instead of 9-2. the same with its advancements, make their hammer attack deal its damage in one shot(25-1 for steelclads and 35-1 for lords) doesn't matter if the total damage isn't as much as that of the axe attack because it will make the dwarves have more strategic options.
incase u don't know what i'm talking about, i posted something related to this in one of the forum topics in response to the question of another. http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 9187#49187
i'm sorry if i'm really pushing for this, but i just realized that giving them more advancement, a mage type unit, and/or a leader isn't very dwarven. having more attack options suits them more. aside from the above mentioned, maybe the thunderguard and dragonguard can also have an alternative range attack that deals only 2/3 of 3/4 the damage but has marksmanship.
any constructive opinions? i'd greatly appreciate any word from the the balancing team
thanx in advance by the wayLu: I think that you've raised a lot of good points here, some of which we've discussed elsewhere. I like your focus on two things: more weapon-based options for dwarves and more types of units. But I also think that dwarves are basically an infantry-based force - a Knalgan alliance might give them other things they don't inherently have, but dwarves should remain essentially infantry and perhaps be considered along the lines of skirmisher, light, medium, heavy, heavy ranged weapon, superheavy defender.
as kingfishers catch fire
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
thanx, i'd really like to see the dwarves as a power melee race rather than a "me too!" race that simply follows the pattern of the others.
well, i doubt "skirmisher" would work well for the dwarves. same way i think giving them a healer (like the gnome unit someone proposed) would make them overpowered. why? because dwarves have better resistance than most units and suffer less damage albeit more frequently, and anyways not right to give them a unit simply because the other factions has an equivalent. and about that mage type unit, don't you think that the runemaster would be better if it instead has a magical melee attack? it will make the dwarves unique AND further give them tactical options. of course, i'm not saying giving them such is still needed
well, as for the knalgan alliance, i'm not sure about those units. the only outlaw i use are thieves and rogues (when playing age of heroes) because the others are simply inferior versions of their lawful counterpart (emphasis on paochers and trappers ...compare them to bowmen and longbowmen). maybe it would give them better identity if their defense were tweaked up a little, this way they would really be "bandit" type units better at harassing rather than dealing serious damage. either that or give them ambush, something i'm sure would make sense.
well, i doubt "skirmisher" would work well for the dwarves. same way i think giving them a healer (like the gnome unit someone proposed) would make them overpowered. why? because dwarves have better resistance than most units and suffer less damage albeit more frequently, and anyways not right to give them a unit simply because the other factions has an equivalent. and about that mage type unit, don't you think that the runemaster would be better if it instead has a magical melee attack? it will make the dwarves unique AND further give them tactical options. of course, i'm not saying giving them such is still needed
well, as for the knalgan alliance, i'm not sure about those units. the only outlaw i use are thieves and rogues (when playing age of heroes) because the others are simply inferior versions of their lawful counterpart (emphasis on paochers and trappers ...compare them to bowmen and longbowmen). maybe it would give them better identity if their defense were tweaked up a little, this way they would really be "bandit" type units better at harassing rather than dealing serious damage. either that or give them ambush, something i'm sure would make sense.
I like the melee aproach also.
What about a reduced "trample"??
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0
But instead of giving one of them the chance of extra attack, just giving the hability to advance pushing back the oponent.
That would be a way of reflecting his elite to be the best melee fighters.
It would give them an extra free mov (always nice), and a powerful unequaled ability.
This will give them the ability to open gaps in the defense and his fast light troops can get a shot at the wounded/mages... or to a bunch of thieves backstabbers.... dunno if sounds too much overpowering
What about a reduced "trample"??
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0
But instead of giving one of them the chance of extra attack, just giving the hability to advance pushing back the oponent.
That would be a way of reflecting his elite to be the best melee fighters.
It would give them an extra free mov (always nice), and a powerful unequaled ability.
This will give them the ability to open gaps in the defense and his fast light troops can get a shot at the wounded/mages... or to a bunch of thieves backstabbers.... dunno if sounds too much overpowering
The reason I suggest skirmisher for dwarves is that it allows us to simulate some dwarven characteristics:
1) small, so can slip through enemy ranks
2) brutal, so can force themselves through enemy ZOC
As was the case with 'undead healing', the property used emulates a completely different paradigm. In the 'undead healing' case, I considered it a case of using magic to 'repair' undead monsters for strategic and tactical reasons. In this case, I use 'skirmish' to emulate the ability of dwarven warriors to cut through enemy defences.
1) small, so can slip through enemy ranks
2) brutal, so can force themselves through enemy ZOC
As was the case with 'undead healing', the property used emulates a completely different paradigm. In the 'undead healing' case, I considered it a case of using magic to 'repair' undead monsters for strategic and tactical reasons. In this case, I use 'skirmish' to emulate the ability of dwarven warriors to cut through enemy defences.
as kingfishers catch fire
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
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joshbosh321
- Posts: 212
- Joined: May 14th, 2004, 10:10 pm
- Location: East Brunswick, NJ
I'm personally in favor of the dwarves getting gnomes, as has been mentioned in other topics. They are exactly what the dwarves aren't (fighting wise) - weak, quick, and smart, perhaps meaning that they can make some mechanical devices as in the new warcraft
I know, no mechanical device and Wesnoth Is Not Warcraft, but still...
I know, no mechanical device and Wesnoth Is Not Warcraft, but still...
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i sure hope this doesn't make me sound rude ...autolycus wrote:The reason I suggest skirmisher for dwarves is that it allows us to simulate some dwarven characteristics:
1) small, so can slip through enemy ranks
2) brutal, so can force themselves through enemy ZOC
As was the case with 'undead healing', the property used emulates a completely different paradigm. In the 'undead healing' case, I considered it a case of using magic to 'repair' undead monsters for strategic and tactical reasons. In this case, I use 'skirmish' to emulate the ability of dwarven warriors to cut through enemy defences.
but anyways, dwarves ARE short ...but not exactly small ...aren't they supposed to be heavier, bulkier and slower than humans? and, ummm ...
skirmisher + dwarves = weird
maybe the ulfseekers and berserker can get skirmisher, that better suits the reason u gave.
...oh! dwarves aren't brutal! just brutally sturdy ...orcs are the ones who are brutal right? ...watcha think? i mean, they are the ones who'd most likely risk losing a limb just to get behind enemy lines and slaughter their weaker ranks
oh yeah, i was wondering why the guardsmen line since to not very much improve with level. i mean, look at sentinels HP? didn't much increase from stalwart ...doesn't much reflect his "defender" role
oh, yeah ...gnomes aren't smart ...but they are clever
...dwarves are the ones who are smart ...technology-wise that is ...how bout, gnomes replacing the human bulk of knalgan alliance? they make better thieves and bandits because they are small, like the dwarves, and semi-quickfooted un non-bulky ...watcha think? pls! no healers for dwarves, because that'd make their "sturdy" race seem ...not so sturdy ...-
joshbosh321
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the outlaws are fine, but gnomes are indeed clever (with technology) yet aren't very phisical.
Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the drug store, but that's just peanuts to space.
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