Mainline: Make plague work on villages

[Insinuator]

Sorry to ruin it for you Caphriel.

Just uploaded my tweak to the 1.8.5 server. It was actually incredibly simple to make an era, what do you know. Just a clarification, if I wanted to put in on 1.9.4, I'd have to reupload, right? I think so. I'm going to make another thread so people can send me their replays and I'll have a central place to compile evidence for or against this case. I'll be combing through them to see which ones even have a bearing on this tweak. Not entirely sure where to put it though: Era, Multiplayer, or User subforums?

[Iris]

Just a clarification, if I wanted to put in on 1.9.4, I'd have to reupload, right?

Yes, and it might also require automatic (wmllint) or manual fixing if it relies on WML or engine aspects that have changed in 1.9.0 and later.

[Insinuator]

Ok, so I've been working on compiling a body of evidence on Village plaguing and I'd like to try a new tactic. In every multiplayer game I've played, one of two things has happened: Either I play a newb whose loss has nothing to do with whether or not Plague is enabled on villages, or I play an experienced player in which using WCs is a foolish/reckless/dangerous move. Either case proves little about the balancing effects of Village plaguing.

So, I'd like to call upon the detractors to this idea to play AS the undead against me. That way, those who feel that this would give the Undead an unfair advantage can try to use it against me. Ideally, I'd play two games against them, one where Village plaguing is enabled and another where it is not, all other things being identical. That way, even imbalanced skill levels can be used as an objective case.

So, if you're interested, post a time or PM me one. If it is a map I've never played before, give me a bit to get familiarized with it before I play. Tuesdays, the weekend, and most evenings are best for me.

[Caphriel]

I can try to dig up time to play another game or two, but I'm not sure when.

Using WCs should never be automatically a foolish/reckless/dangerous move against a good player. Spamming them, on the other hand...

[monochromatic]

I'd play but I haven't played since last year. And when I did, it was debugging through my campaigns to test them and debug them.
And I always sucked with Undead.

[Insinuator]

That's it, two whole people? I would have thought that with all the people disagreeing with me, there would be more who'd want to show me the error of my ways, i.e., unbalancing.

[StDrake]

You expect too much friend, every person using the current state of art shows your error simply by not complaining. It is YOU who claims the current state is wrong, so it is YOU who needs more people to show it.

[Insinuator]

It is YOU who claims the current state is wrong, so it is YOU who needs more people to show it.

Well duh. It's why I asked.

Anyways, here is another replay versus the obliging elvish_sovereign/monochromatic, whom I cannot thank enough. I kinda messed up saving the replay so I had to go back to the turn before and it didn't turn out the same (i.e. I didn't kill his leader), but I think it illustrates my point to a certain extent. Notice particularly around his 14th turn. Here he has a chance to turn my Troll into a WC on a contested village, the classic example. He misses and I survive, but let's suppose he had hit. Upon reviewing this setup, I'd have to admit it would have been a powerful move.

It would have made his leader virtually impossible to kill. In fact, it might have made me think about retreating until night fall. It would also have bolstered his unit line. These are all facts I can't deny.

However, back to the bigger picture. By this point his left flank had collapsed and I controlled about 75% of the villages. I had another force moving in from behind which would have cut him off from recruiting. The only reason this situation developed was a suicidal attack. I submit that this village Plaguing would not have altered the balance of the game. However, I do feel more strongly that I should work out a means to counter-balance it.

[Reepurr]

Upon reviewing this setup, I'd have to admit it would have been a powerful move.

It would have made his leader virtually impossible to kill. In fact, it might have made me think about retreating until night fall. It would also have bolstered his unit line. These are all facts I can't deny.

I submit that this village Plaguing would not have altered the balance of the game. However, I do feel more strongly that I should work out a means to counter-balance it.

Whoa, hey. Stop with the contradictive writing, it's confusing.

[Insinuator]

It's not contradictory, it's bringing out both sides. That is what making a fully fleshed-out argument entails. If you would care to take the place of elvish_sovereign on turn 14 and change the outcome of the game, THEN it would be contradictory. But you can't and you won't, so it's not.

If I only considered my side, I would be dogmatic.

[Thrawn]

Upon reviewing this setup, I'd have to admit it would have been a powerful move.

It would have made his leader virtually impossible to kill. In fact, it might have made me think about retreating until night fall. It would also have bolstered his unit line. These are all facts I can't deny.

I submit that this village Plaguing would not have altered the balance of the game. However, I do feel more strongly that I should work out a means to counter-balance it.

Whoa, hey. Stop with the contradictive writing, it's confusing.

He's saying that while it was a noticeable local change, the global outcome would have been the same.

@Insinuator: the problem comes when the local situation drastically changes the outcome--I'd say if you could play a few more practice matches with this, you'll have a better idea of the scope of this change

[monochromatic]

I'd play more, but you (and everyone) can see, my competitive multiplayer skill has decreased greatly since I haven't been playing for a while. Although I played a match yesterday with me 100 gold random (undead) vs. AI 200 gold random (loyalists) and I won. So that means I haven't completely lost it.
EDIT: Typo

[Insinuator]

Much has unfolded since I last posted here. I decided to immerse myself in the MP world, to search for the balance issues that are the main objection here. I joined the "Ladder" and attempted to seek out players of a similar skill to me. I played over 50 games of 1 v 1 in the last month and a half, many of them as or against the Undead. In none of them were Walking Corpses a force to be reckoned with. In fact, in only about three or four games were WCs even used.

So after observing this and general Undead playstyle, I've come to a better understanding of their balance in MP. And it reinforces my conviction that they should be able to Plague on Villages. Here is my current thought process:

When playing as the Undead, speed is often a necessity. A first night rush can spell the difference between death and... well, continued undeath. Walking Corpses are the slowest unit the UD can recruit. They lag behind and slow down your advance. When they finally get to the front line, they are often forced into inferior positions so you don't lose more critical & expensive units. Their lack of ZoC makes them very limited in forming lines and protecting units. They can be easily overwhelmed or just kill themselves with a couple misses.

So why not just use them for defense? Well, this tactic often fails as well. While they can hold a village against a single scout, any two units can easily wipe them out. In a battle line, they are often targeted as an easy spot to punch through and surround other units. Putting them on defensible terrain is a large risk, considering that you must put your other units in weaker positions.

But, really, the thing that makes WCs the least useful is the cost/benefit ratio. A Dark Adept is a far more potent unit due to it's increased HP, movement, and attack power. A Skeleton has better resistances, more HP, more movement. Bats have much more movement. Ghosts are far more versatile. Skeleton Archers have more HP, movement, and a ranged attack. And then there are Ghouls. Ghouls have the best all-around resistances of the UD, more HP than WCs, more movement, are Fearless, and can poison. All for only 8 more gold. In fact, I would go so far as to say that in almost any matchup (sans Undead mirror), I would recruit a Ghoul over two WCs.

Thus I've discovered that WCs are virtually unused in a serious match. This is precisely because they are not worth it. Too risky. So giving them a small situational bonus is not a powerup. It is actually an incentive to even use them. Attached is a replay of me losing to Drakes. As you may discern, the reason I lost is because of heavy WC usage. This is atypical of most of my games, but I think it illustrates the weakness of the WC.

Again, if anyone wishes to prove to me the power of the WC, I challenge them to beat me as the Undead using WCs effectively.

[Atz]

Thus I've discovered that WCs are virtually unused in a serious match. This is precisely because they are not worth it. Too risky. So giving them a small situational bonus is not a powerup. It is actually an incentive to even use them. Attached is a replay of me losing to Drakes. As you may discern, the reason I lost is because of heavy WC usage. This is atypical of most of my games, but I think it illustrates the weakness of the WC.

I that really the best example? WCs are of limited use against Drakes for a number of reasons... the drake units all have at least 20% resistance to impact, for a start (actual drakes, that is, not saurians). They're also fast, so it's going to be hard to catch them with a WC at night, and during the day even the burner does enough melee damage to kill a corpse on retaliation. Finally, Drakes tend to have a relatively small number of expensive, powerful units, which makes it harder to get a significant number of resurrections.

[beetlenaut]

It is nice that you are doing some work on your idea yourself. We appreciate that.

I just noticed that you are using 1.8.5. You should know that the WC's were made a bit stronger for 1.9.x--they now all get fearless automatically. Maybe you could convince the multiplayer devs to consider your change in addition to that one, or instead of it.