poison problem !
Moderator: Forum Moderators
poison problem !
hello i posted about poison there
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3524
after the joshbosh answer i bring the subject here.
let's me first thanks you all dev for this great games .
the poison now is really a problem in small map, in big map where holding a position is not so important you can deal with it , but in small map like blitz, (online player like them), it's a pain in the ass. when come a poisoner (often more follow) you can do nothing against that, if you are poisoned you should retreat an important unit .(all unit are important when you hold a position), Running to him for killing him can put you in unfavorable spot so after you killed him you'll be killed ...
For now before i start a game i warn "no poison tactics" people are free to choose any races as far they don't use poison simply because is unfair
if you dev want to keep poison as is (it will be your choice and i'll respect it)
houses should heal poison + give 8HP but the idea i posted in other post should work too (and better i think) to make games fair for all races in all maps.
cya and good job !
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3524
after the joshbosh answer i bring the subject here.
let's me first thanks you all dev for this great games .
the poison now is really a problem in small map, in big map where holding a position is not so important you can deal with it , but in small map like blitz, (online player like them), it's a pain in the ass. when come a poisoner (often more follow) you can do nothing against that, if you are poisoned you should retreat an important unit .(all unit are important when you hold a position), Running to him for killing him can put you in unfavorable spot so after you killed him you'll be killed ...
For now before i start a game i warn "no poison tactics" people are free to choose any races as far they don't use poison simply because is unfair
if you dev want to keep poison as is (it will be your choice and i'll respect it)
houses should heal poison + give 8HP but the idea i posted in other post should work too (and better i think) to make games fair for all races in all maps.
cya and good job !
actually, joshbosh was wrong, this should have been posted in ideas. but i don't htink you should post it there now, it will create 3 duplicate threads. 
as for the idea... use units good against poison. i.e. undead cannot be poisoned; ranged units are not good to poison, because the poisoner gets injured; magical units take away the elusive advantage of poisoners, and make them attack melee, doing very little damage.
as for the idea... use units good against poison. i.e. undead cannot be poisoned; ranged units are not good to poison, because the poisoner gets injured; magical units take away the elusive advantage of poisoners, and make them attack melee, doing very little damage.
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
not a marginal case at all
hello again .
poison treat is not a marginal case , even it can be deal in big maps he's still a problems when you have a poisoner flood , people usually hire scout followed by gob + trolls and then poisoner and then you are just "[censored] up", it's really unfair and hardly beatable , i really think (i'm not the only one) that should be balanced, the problem is not the poison unit but the use of them , when you have a "monoculture" tactics , when a player know that tactics give him more than 50% chances to win (poison rise that % too much).
i like to use thief and backstab tactics but this one even is powerful it's not without danger cause something you should put you unit to bad spots, poisoner can be used without much danger and big benefices.
poison treat is not a marginal case , even it can be deal in big maps he's still a problems when you have a poisoner flood , people usually hire scout followed by gob + trolls and then poisoner and then you are just "[censored] up", it's really unfair and hardly beatable , i really think (i'm not the only one) that should be balanced, the problem is not the poison unit but the use of them , when you have a "monoculture" tactics , when a player know that tactics give him more than 50% chances to win (poison rise that % too much).
i like to use thief and backstab tactics but this one even is powerful it's not without danger cause something you should put you unit to bad spots, poisoner can be used without much danger and big benefices.
you have basically just said that poisoning tactics are better but you don't like them
i used to be FANTASTIC at Street Fighter II Special Championship Edition on the MegaDrive/Genesis - i was unbeatable - except if people pinned me in the corner, which is death for most people. If i lost in the face opf such "unfair" tactics my response was always to pin them in the corner on the next round/game and get a perfect KO in 7 seconds - if you can't beat them - join them
i used to be FANTASTIC at Street Fighter II Special Championship Edition on the MegaDrive/Genesis - i was unbeatable - except if people pinned me in the corner, which is death for most people. If i lost in the face opf such "unfair" tactics my response was always to pin them in the corner on the next round/game and get a perfect KO in 7 seconds - if you can't beat them - join them
I will play Undead and own you without poison. Then you will play the Elves to get the Woses, and I will still own you because Elvish Pillager learnt it all from me (only half kidding).
Happy now?
there is ghoul balancing going on, in fact, suggestion for one strike so it poisons a lot less often. Is that the problem, or is it the Orcs? Those aren't so bad. Recruit mages, making them get hit, or hit them hard and fast with units that will take them down quickly. (they have negative resistances to some attacks.)
Happy now?
there is ghoul balancing going on, in fact, suggestion for one strike so it poisons a lot less often. Is that the problem, or is it the Orcs? Those aren't so bad. Recruit mages, making them get hit, or hit them hard and fast with units that will take them down quickly. (they have negative resistances to some attacks.)
this is implicit in my point - it's not much fun to get thrashed in 7 seconds without landing a punch - people stop "hacking the corners" and you quickly get back to proper gamplay - if you want to have good games against people who use interesting tactics in the name of fun rather than doing anything to win no matter how boring then i suggest you...find some people who use interesting tactics in the name of fun rather than doing anything to win no matter how boring
it's not the game with the problem - it's who you play against - you see it everywhere on the internet. Take camping: on some quake servers it is legitmate in others you get kicked.
In Wolfenstein on the Xbox it is considered bad form to use the panzer rocket launcher in multiplayer - people who do do not make many friends or get invited back - i wonder how they justify any skillful play to themselves also?
As it happens my brother is his clan's sniper, he has an enormous amount of skill and if he shoots you in the head before you fire a shot that's just your tough luck - try not to get confused between bad players, bad gameplay and bad games - you'll have more fun
it's not the game with the problem - it's who you play against - you see it everywhere on the internet. Take camping: on some quake servers it is legitmate in others you get kicked.
In Wolfenstein on the Xbox it is considered bad form to use the panzer rocket launcher in multiplayer - people who do do not make many friends or get invited back - i wonder how they justify any skillful play to themselves also?
As it happens my brother is his clan's sniper, he has an enormous amount of skill and if he shoots you in the head before you fire a shot that's just your tough luck - try not to get confused between bad players, bad gameplay and bad games - you'll have more fun
Last edited by dtw on October 21st, 2004, 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yeah - it happened to Civ3 too - the player base split to the GOTM players, who "milk" the game in every possible way and abuse the AI, and the RBCiv players, who play honorably and get more fun out of it, even though the road is often harsher.
We might end up with "house rules" such as "no pushing the WIN button" in certain people's games. At worst, they'll design eras themselves, and exclude poisoners.
We might end up with "house rules" such as "no pushing the WIN button" in certain people's games. At worst, they'll design eras themselves, and exclude poisoners.
ghule
I meant to make the Ghoul much worse; I guess apparently I never got around too it. Oops.
Gandalf-"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow. You cannot pass!"
AT- "That sounds like more trouble than it's worth."
AT- "That sounds like more trouble than it's worth."
If Ghoul was balanced to have less attacks to reduce the likelyhood of poison what if Orcish assassian were also reduced thus?Circon wrote: there is ghoul balancing going on, in fact, suggestion for one strike so it poisons a lot less often. Is that the problem, or is it the Orcs? Those aren't so bad. Recruit mages, making them get hit, or hit them hard and fast with units that will take them down quickly. (they have negative resistances to some attacks.)
Code: Select all
Orcish Assassin Currently
Melee Dagger (Blade, 8-1)
Darts (Blade, 3-3) poison
Change to:
Melee Dagger (Blade, 6-1)poison
Darts (Blade, 6-1) poison or (3-2)poison but I think that is too strong
Orcish Slayer Currently
Dagger (Blade, 12-2)
Darts (Blade, 5-4) poison
Change to:
Dagger (Blade, 8-2) poison
Darts (Blade, 6-3) poison
Or someone can suggest new numbers but the idea here is to keep the relaitve strength of Orcish Assassin/Slayers the same while reducing the chance of poison. The loss of poison is partially made up for by adding poison to melee. If this is still too much poison the melee poison could be left out(melee strength then increased accordingly).
The shovel saves more lives than the sword.
are you INSANE? orcish assassins have NO strengths except their poison attack. giving them only one stroke will make them only have a 50% chance of poisoning, making them WORTHLESS.
sorry, but poison is NOT as powerful as you think it is. use healers, use mages, use horsemen to kill them before they can poison you, and it is a fair fight, actually it is in your favor because they recruited a bunch of units that are now dead.
there is one change here i agree with, and you only partly did it, and that is reducing the quadrupling of the assassin's melee when it advances. why not change it to 8-1 -> 8-2?
sorry, but poison is NOT as powerful as you think it is. use healers, use mages, use horsemen to kill them before they can poison you, and it is a fair fight, actually it is in your favor because they recruited a bunch of units that are now dead.
there is one change here i agree with, and you only partly did it, and that is reducing the quadrupling of the assassin's melee when it advances. why not change it to 8-1 -> 8-2?
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
No.turin wrote:are you INSANE? orcish assassins have NO strengths except their poison attack. giving them only one stroke will make them only have a 50% chance of poisoning, making them WORTHLESS.
I realise that Orcish Assassin's strength is in its poison & its resistance. I was attempting to balance this by increasing the strength of its attacks and giving it poison melee(so you can't avoid a chance to be poisoned) If the numbers I suggested aren't high enough to make up for the loss of # of attacks then make it more such as...
Orcish Assassin Currently
Melee Dagger (Blade, 8-1)
Darts (Blade, 3-3) poison
Change to:
Melee Dagger (Blade, 6-1)poison
Darts (Blade, 12-1)poison (Blade, 6-2)poison
I think the Orcish Assassin/Slayers in the campaigns are GREAT opponants. Some are suggesting they are a 'cheap' tactic in MP. If lots of others think that L1 poison units are not too powerful then please don't mess with them. I was trying to keep the relative power of them the same for both MP and single player.
The shovel saves more lives than the sword.
-
Abdullah
IMO, it is not poison which is unbalanced it is the ghouls. Poison weren't up to much discussion before ghouls were added to the undead faction.
The problem is, as I see it because ghouls have poison on their melee attack (also mentioned in other threads). Most units are melee attackers and thus many units get poisoned trying to kill these ghouls.
A solution to this could be to make the poison a secondary melee attack as the direwolf rider (ie. 4-2 or maybe 3-2). This way the ghouls are still powerfull because you can use the poison but also beatable because you can attack it without getting poisoned.
On a sidenote I don't think orchish assassins should be changed at all. As I see them they are perfectly balanced: low hp, high terrain mods, weak attacks but poison ability on the ranged attack. A good unit not too powerfull, not too weak.
/Abdullah's two cents.
The problem is, as I see it because ghouls have poison on their melee attack (also mentioned in other threads). Most units are melee attackers and thus many units get poisoned trying to kill these ghouls.
A solution to this could be to make the poison a secondary melee attack as the direwolf rider (ie. 4-2 or maybe 3-2). This way the ghouls are still powerfull because you can use the poison but also beatable because you can attack it without getting poisoned.
On a sidenote I don't think orchish assassins should be changed at all. As I see them they are perfectly balanced: low hp, high terrain mods, weak attacks but poison ability on the ranged attack. A good unit not too powerfull, not too weak.
/Abdullah's two cents.