Mainline: Make plague work on villages

[monochromatic]

Dude, chill. PM him, it's faster.

[Insinuator]

Heh heh. Already did. Gotta keep myself amused, though, right?

On a more serious note, I've begun testing without the variations, but I'm having several issues. First of all, in a multiplayer situation, on a finely balanced map, the AI doesn't use Walking Corpses, or at least, very little. I don't use them most of the time either. And in response to my earlier query, only one person tentatively committed to using them, though he wouldn't say to what extent. In order to see an affect on balance, it seems like I'd have to give the AI a "nudge" to use WCs. But as soon as I do that, it's not really an accurate simulation.

I might try taking scenarios from mainline campaigns where the player is forced to use WCs or is attacked by a lot of WCs, adding my Village-Plaguing event, and seeing how they play out. But because those scenarios are written around WCs acting a certain way, ANY change is obviously going to affect the balance of the scenario.

Any ideas on how to accurately portray balance/imbalance without artificial constraints? Or, at the least, any superbly balanced maps? I'm using Isar's Cross and Hamlets as those seem to be very popular.

[monochromatic]

Isar's is notorious for being unbalanced. And don't play against the AI, it sucks. You'll need to spend time on the MP against humans and get replays from there, don't use campaigns.

Suggested maps: Freelands, Fallenstar Lake, Caves of the Basilisk.

[Insinuator]

I'm not playing against the AI. It's AI vs AI. Playing against a human won't reveal very good results either. For one, if their skill level is above or below mine, altered WCs aren't going to make a difference. For another, they could use a bizzare set of tactics that would render using WCs under any circumstances stupid.

Thanks for the map suggestions, though.

[beetlenaut]

It's AI vs AI. Playing against a human won't reveal very good results either.

The AI is very bad, and doesn't understand how to use the different factions at all. I'm afraid your results won't mean much that way. The game is balanced for human vs. human matches.

[Insinuator]

Then what results will mean much? Gee, I already pointed out why human vs human is flawed. Human vs AI is obviously flawed. At least the AI vs AI is equal stupidity!

Anyways, I've played three multiplayer matches using my Village Plaguing units. I will let the results speak for themselves. All of my opponents were informed of the changes I made. The first guy I played said he wasn't very good. The second said he played on and off for 3-4 years. The third had played for a year and was very good. Familiar with the map, too. I couldn't finish that game because my bed was calling. Is calling...

[Reepurr]

Pick two human players of a similar skill level then. (Maybe people next to each other on the ladder?)

[zookeeper]

This should do it.

Code: Select all

[event]
    name=die
    first_time_only=no

    [filter]
        [filter_location]
            terrain="*^V*"
        [/filter_location]

        [not]
            race=undead
        [/not]
    [/filter]

    [filter_second]
        special=plague
    [/filter_second]

    [unit]
        type=Walking Corpse
        variation=$unit.undead_variation
        side=$second_unit.side
        x,y=$x1,$y1
        placement=map_overwrite
        moves=0
        attacks_left=0
    [/unit]
[/event]

[monochromatic]

[Insinuator]

@Zookeeper:

I tried using the placement=map_overwrite earlier, but it still wouldn't put the WC on the village. It kept bumping him off next to it. Thanks for the variation tag, though. Is there a place in the WML reference where it talks about using periods to highlight particular sections of a default variable such as $units? I keep looking but can't find it.

On a different note, I had another idea last night: blind tests. If I made my Village Plague into an add-on, perhaps as part of a balanced map-pack, I could ask people to save their replays and e-mail them to me without telling them exactly what I changed. That way it would be a more objective test. I am still faced with the problem of uneven skill levels, however. There is no ranking system for multiplayer that I know of.

EDIT: Here is my currently working code for 1.8.5. I think the special=plague doesn't work for 1.9.4, so I had to change it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Code: Select all

        # Event to make Walking Corpses spawn on villages   
    [event]
    	name=die
    	first_time_only=no

    	[filter]  		
    		[filter_location]
    			terrain=*^V*	# Filters only units on villages
    		[/filter_location]
    		[not]
    			race=undead		# Ensures only attacker can Plague
    		[/not]
    	[/filter]
   		[filter_second]
    		type=Walking Corpse,Soulless,Necromancer
    	[/filter_second]
    	[kill]
    		x,y=$x1,$y1
    	[/kill]
    	[unit]					# Creates the Walking Corpse on the village
    		type=Walking Corpse
    		side=$second_unit.side
    		x,y=$x1,$y1
    		moves=0
    		attacks_left=0
    	[/unit]
    [/event]

[Atz]

Then what results will mean much? Gee, I already pointed out why human vs human is flawed. Human vs AI is obviously flawed. At least the AI vs AI is equal stupidity!

AI vs AI is the worst possible method of testing. The main reason being that there are no actual players involved. I don't care if the game is balanced when the computer plays with itself. I don't think many people do, aside from AI developers and people who run Wesnoth betting rings. I care if the game is balanced when I am playing it.

Also, the AI is a terrible representation of game balance because it is incapable of using the full range of strategies. Obviously, not all humans are either, but the AI is much more limited than any player with more than the most basic grasp of the game. I would barely rank myself as intermediate, and I can beat two AIs at once. Balancing based on AI performance is like balancing based on the play of people who launch a skeleton assault during the day against drakes and wonder why it doesn't go well.

Even if it was pretty skilled, testing using identical AIs would still be a poor basis for balance, because it would bias the results based on the AI's playstyle. Let's pretend that the AI tends to play very cautiously and put up a very strong defence, for instance, and we balance the game based this. Now we release the game to the public, and it turns out that many humans can win by playing aggressively and that one faction is clearly superior to all the others for this, but we didn't notice because the AI doesn't play like that. Oops! This is also why you need to test changes with a variety of players and playstyles, incidentally.

[Caphriel]

On that note, one of the reasons proposed balance changes rarely go anywhere is because it is hard and time-consuming to generate a convincing body of evidence.

[Insinuator]

Here are a couple more multiplayer replays. First one is a pushover win on my part. Second one is much closer, but then I do something stupid and attack with my leader. Ulfserker. RIP.

Still working on releasing as an add-on. Caphriel suggested releasing as an era instead of a map pack and I will probably try this, though I have no clue how to make one of those and I think it will require modifying the WC unit.

[Reepurr]

Here are a couple more multiplayer replays. First one is a pushover win on my part. Second one is much closer, but then I do something stupid and attack with my leader. Ulfserker. RIP.

Still working on releasing as an add-on. Caphriel suggested releasing as an era instead of a map pack and I will probably try this, though I have no clue how to make one of those and I think it will require modifying the WC unit.

No it won't. Simply provide a path to all default factions instead of UMC factions, and add the VillagePlague code into your era's _main.cfg.

[Caphriel]

Here are a couple more multiplayer replays. First one is a pushover win on my part. Second one is much closer, but then I do something stupid and attack with my leader. Ulfserker. RIP.

Still working on releasing as an add-on. Caphriel suggested releasing as an era instead of a map pack and I will probably try this, though I have no clue how to make one of those and I think it will require modifying the WC unit.

My first game of Wesnoth in years!