[interface] New Filtrer to find Add ons (New idea!)

[bvanevery]

Unfortunately, some UMC developers are not amongst the brightest bunch and can’t follow standard software development practices.

The correct cultural practice in an Open Source community is to tirelessly educate them. If you don't train the next generation of open source contributors, what do you expect?

[bigkahuna]

The correct cultural practice in an Open Source community is to tirelessly educate them. If you don't train the next generation of open source contributors, what do you expect?

Reply

That's why we have this 24/7 open forum thread full of rants like yours (and threads like Shadowmaster posted) to educate them... I don't really see how we at the Wesnoth forums and the developers are somehow lacking in our duties, and why you are qualified to criticize us all about it.

I suggest (if you feel this strongly about it) finding a solution to accomplish a Open Source education program instead. Most (if not all) of us are not getting paid, play Wesnoth in our free time and as a hobby, and help people because we are nice and not for the glorious ideals of Open Source.

Anyway, I think our current approach is good enough. 75% of our add-on creators already know to some extent the proper update-numbering system. The other 25% either don't understand English or can't be helped.

[Gambit]

Alright now let's end this tangent.

[bvanevery]

That's why we have this 24/7 open forum thread full of rants like yours (and threads like Shadowmaster posted) to educate them... I don't really see how we at the Wesnoth forums and the developers are somehow lacking in our duties, and why you are qualified to criticize us all about it.

I think it's a question of attitude and frame of mind. Tireless educators know they're working to a good purpose and do not deride, complain about, and shut out people who do not live up to their expectations. They don't seek to avoid "problematic" work. They work for the greater good of communities and yes, that means broader principles such as Open Source in general.

[Gambit]

Right. Because we have 100% excellent communication with everyone who has ever picked up a text editor and typed a line of WML. We also don't maintain an extensive wiki covering absolutely every single aspect of both playing and developing the game (Including an entire article on this very topic of PBL files and versioning schemes). Furthermore we don't have a forum dedicated to helping users with WML. Nor do we have over a dozen Wesnoth IRC channels where they can ask for help 24/7 thanks to the global community of developers and experienced UMC authors we also don't have. We go insanely far out of our way to help those who are looking for it. If they aren't looking for help or information on the correct way to do things, we have no way of providing it to them.

Now, I said enough of this tangent. You appear to be quite ignorant regarding our community, and this is not the right place to discuss it even if you understood the rude insinuations you are making towards us.

[bvanevery]

It's actually not as tangential as you suppose. Technology usually can't solve underlying cultural problems. Also, enough with the "you vs. us" stuff. I've made my contributions to a UMC campaign, and I've lurked for many years.

[Gambit]

You made it "us v. you" when you implied, and then reiterated, that the Wesnoth community, not only has — but has also failed to fulfill — a responsibility to "tirelessly educate" every single user that has ever downloaded the game and attempted to modify it.

Once more I will point out that we have done everything in our power. We cannot give help to users who are not seeking it. We have no way of knowing they even exist short of adding spyware to the game that looks for users creating add-ons and then throws annoying pop-up wiki pages at them.

I will not ask you a third time to stop with this thread derailment. It is entirely off-topic from the idea itself. Go make a thread in Off Topic or User's Forum if you really insist on discussing this point further. You could call it "How the Wesnoth Community Can Hunt Down And Educate People Who Couldn't Be Bothered To Search Our Extensive Documentation To Find The Right Way To Do Things".

And if you have lurked for years, you will know what it means when someone posts in mod green, and then administrator orange.

[Gambit]

(Yes I know. Gambit double posting? Is the world ending?)
After such an interruption I thought it would be a good idea to summarize the on-topic points so that they won't be lost. And maybe, just maybe, the original discussion could be reignited.

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The original request was for a way to filter add-ons based on an objective measure of popularity. Something like Downloads/Time. This wouldn't fall into the FPI of having rated add-ons, because it regularly mixes things up. New add-ons would be able to spike up in popularity if they get 200 downloads their first day. Older add-ons would sink back down when they stop getting downloaded at such a massive rate.

The next suggestion was an activity rating. Uploads/Time. Which would show how actively developed the add-on is.

A third suggestion was to show the original upload date so that people could see how old an add-on is.

The fourth suggestion kind of fell back into the realm of the FPI list because it was for a subjective rating system and the ability to leave comments. It also allows peoples' work to accumulate a permanent bad spot that people avoid (perhaps even after the bugs — or whatever — were fixed).
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I dislike #4 personally because we've all released add-ons that had bugs we didn't find in single player testing. We (hopefully) have all taken constructive criticism and made improvements. Do we want our add-ons to have permanent records? This could take us from the helpful community we have always striven to be, to being one that pushes bad content aside and forgets about it. The developers have always been against subjective rating systems for similar reasons.

[Sapient]

Number of downloads alone is not an indication of quality.
If anything, number of downloads is indicative of the problem.
For example, people will download something called "Test" just because it is at the top of the list, regardless of whether it contains an actual campaign.
Also with my add-on, number of downloads went up significantly when it was listed first.


At the risk of saying something heretical, I'm going to disagree with the basic premise of the FPI #32. I think there are plenty of real world examples that show rating systems can be effective, even accounting for differing tastes.

Consider the site rottentomatoes.com for movie reviews. If a movie is for kids then it will be rated on whether or not it is a good kids movie. Likewise you won't pit Lord of the Rings agaisnt Pride and Predjudice. I think intelligent reviewers are capable of recognizing those differences and rating content accordingly. But I wouldn't want any anonymous person to be able to rate the content, just titled users, e.g. "Forum Regulars." If anonymous persons are going to rank content, however, it should be kept separate from trusted reviewers so you can choose between the two ranking systems.


Furthermore, I think that if the popularity of Wesnoth keeps growing and the number of add-ons keeps growing, eventually it will reach a point where we really need such a ranking system but currently I don't think it's needed. There are not enough qualified and dedicated content reviewers, not enough for me to want such a system in place. If you don't believe me, take a look at WSRSW site and how few people bother to rank the content there.

[StDrake]

Any ranking will still run the risk of being subjective..well I guess there could be a way of lessening that by taking an average off several reviews

[IPS]

Also there can be a rate system based in words? Like "Awesome" ; "ok" ; "Nice" ; "inefficient" , etc. And there must be a table or a stuff to can see how many persons said it's "nice", "inefficent" and other stuff and you have an idea how good is the add-on. Also, if you change of idea later, then you must can change your opinion about the add-on list to rate again and change your valor in that statistic.

About the "popularity" stuff, at new version's release the people must update only those add-ons what they like, so some eras like "Bob's rpg era" can get more downloads in each version update; but this doesn't mean every add on will have downloads because some add-ons don't convince the people and then they will not download it again.

[doofus-01]

Furthermore, I think that if the popularity of Wesnoth keeps growing and the number of add-ons keeps growing, eventually it will reach a point where we really need such a ranking system but currently I don't think it's needed. There are not enough qualified and dedicated content reviewers, not enough for me to want such a system in place. If you don't believe me, take a look at WSRSW site and how few people bother to rank the content there.

Not that I disagree with your larger point, but WSRSW is more obscure than wesnoth.org or the add-on interface. It's also not synchronized, so the content gets out of date. The same very low level of participation wouldn't necessarily happen in an official system.

Wesnoth used to collect statistics, would it be possible to use some of that feature, if it still exists, to transmit a rating? That would get higher participation.

EDIT: Well, a rating system is frowned upon, but some sort of indicator that an add-on is playable would be nice. "Test" wouldn't get many good ratings, for example.

[lokiju]

I have to add that with an open source game that will rely heavily on user-made content, giving the many casuals (like me) who don't follow development threads 24/7 a way to quickly determine which UMCs they want to play is extremely important. Many of you are here quite often, and are more knowledgeable of your fellow UMC developers, and therefore have a good idea of which UMCs you will play. But when new folks inevitably show up (again, like me) looking for help with UMC choices, and find the present layout (forums and add-on game system) lacking in ease of use, shouldn't an alternative be considered?

Rating systems work. They have worked for many games with add-on content. Please either improve the in-game add-on system, or create a sticky with more detailed information without having to click individual links. Something a bit better than: List of MP Scenarios/Campaigns for Feedback at http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=24273. While this links to many add-ons, maybe a description of what each is along with the link because often times the thread doesn't state what the project is, like with Sci Fi and Golbeeze's Survivals, which are simply asking for feedback.

[StDrake]

How about a link on the frontpage to a list of avalible addons with wiki reviews availiable? A makeshift solution, but it seems we're gaining pressure on it and not comming up with any serious solution.
I can volunteer to write some reviews (though I don't like giving points) if someone might consider me for such a task.
probably more would not since i don't have that 'forum regular' tag..probably because some of the high titles seem to hate me

[lokiju]

How about a link on the frontpage to a list of avalible addons with wiki reviews availiable? A makeshift solution, but it seems we're gaining pressure on it and not comming up with any serious solution.
I can volunteer to write some reviews (though I don't like giving points) if someone might consider me for such a task.
probably more would not since i don't have that 'forum regular' tag..probably because some of the high titles seem to hate me

Hey, I would take anything at this point. This seems like a good start to me.