Conquest 2.0 - on 1.8 server

[Lich_Lord]

I feel like conquest is about to become even more complicated, which might make it more unpopular. One of the main reasons why people don't play it is because the game is so long, and if you add all of this stuff of peasants doing tons of work, then it will only make the game longer.

[Hiebe]

Hmmmm yeah :/ maybe we should make a totally new sorta game:) but it's a lot more work I like conquest but it get boring. Playing the same maps doing the same thing :/ I think there should be some sort of randomness

I really like th idea of senarios to play

[Mabuse]

and if you add all of this stuff of peasants doing tons of work, then it will only make the game longer.

as said it wont happen, or can you make a quote of me where i state that "peasants doing tons of work" will be included in one of the next releases.

the only thing which may be done by peasants is to build castles, but im not even sure about that (would be ok though, and finally you dont have to build castles anyway)

I feel like conquest is about to become even more complicated, which might make it more unpopular. One of the main reasons why people don't play it is because the game is so long

well, it may be debateable if conquest is unpopular, but another reason for this could also be that there is an established core group pf players who tramples any newb on sight.

the most common thingy is that people tend to NAP (non attack packt) with people they know. also some players gets persuaded into extremely stupid naps. it usually ends up that players who dont nap gets killed, the others who made stupid naps get killed after that (but seem happy with that result)
well, after all most of the games are ffa so its ok in the end - i cant tell people how to play the game.

also the established players got used to the partially kinda unintuitive gameplay
of conquest (for example newly recruited units can attack - this is pretty uncommen for Battle of Wesnoth) and have thus an advantage over new players. while this is generally true (expierienced players can play better), i feel that some of these things could be made more intuitive.

as said, most of the games i lost i could have done better, but there is a clear tendency for people who know each other wont attack each other and stuff like that.

so in essence some of the changes i make hopefully make the game more intuitive for players that are used to regular wesnoth, and also generally more fun, i will add a few simple options, that may lead to a better level of strategy, more choices, more options

BUT, i want to pronounce that the game shoudl be stil as kiss as possible while opening a variety of options that make it interesting.


game length:
----------------
that they game is long also has something to do with the number of players and the map size.

well, in the end some 2 or even 4 player maps would be appreciated.
i already think to convert some MAINLINE maps to CONQUEST, which is perfectly possible



@Hiebe:
show me your middle earth map (inspired by) and i may continue to work on it, if you are out of inspiration.

[Mabuse]

as a conclusion i will make a (short) list of changes of what will/may get added to a next version:


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- distance of friendly villages (in capitol mode) reduced to 7

- light cav and infantry (3 gold units) for almost every race

- razing city option, need a strong unit for it (total dmg of 100 required), and no adjacent enemy units, units needs an attack for it and will lose all remaing moves
...razed cities can be stil used for board/unboard

- razing castle option, same as raze City

- rebuild city option, need a worker for it, and no adjacent enemy units, unit needs an attack and will lose all moves, cost around: 10 gold

- build castle Option, need a worker for it, and no adjacent enemy units, cost around: 3 gold
(you may build up to 5 castles per worker on a turn, since a worker has move 5, so it can move, build and move on - if it makes sense to build that many castles is another point, also you should consider that a worker who ends his turn not on a village will not produce any gold this round)
...castles cannot be build on razed cities


- overworked region boni for all maps. will be slight changes (if any)

- new maps (converted/modified mainline maps for example)

- option to select strengh of enemy cities for capitol mode
(Weak (Militia only), Medium (Infantry only), Strong (Cavalry), Very Strong (Pikeman) and Random (Randomly assigned Militia, Infantry, Cavalry or Pikeman))

- Than will be changed to Tahn on Wesnoth map

- new recruits dont have an attack anymore

- you can also recruit by right click next to a city
(not only right click on an empty city, so you may save time)
...units recruited next to a city have 0 moves, units recruited on a city have 1 move
...land units cant be recruited over deep water (or other unwalkables)
...sea units cant be recruited over non-water tiles

- slightly reduced costs and XP for REINFORCE option

- ENTRENCH/FORTIFY Option
...can only be used by Infantry units
...unit gets +10% defense for all Terrains
...unit loses all moves
...units gets 0 moves on next turn
...no adjacent enemy units


- new kind of dock may get added
(just a non-city-place where ships can board/unboard, units loses all moves/attack on unboard)
...may consist of several terrain types


- help option, that may pop up if dont have acces to an option (for example "Rebuild City", "Build Castle", "Entrench", "Reinforce", "Raze City", "Raze Castle") that explaines why you dont have access to it atm

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so thats the list so far, seems ok for me and will hopefully make the game somewhat richer

it doesnt seem that much

but, as usual, im open for suggestions

[Araja]

I'm not sure I like the idea of being able to build the great wall of China in one turn, even in GEB a peasant can only build one a turn..

[Mabuse]

so what exactly is what you dont like about it, if a worker can build up to 5 castles a turn ?

to answer in some details:
---------------------------
well in GEB everything is a bit slower ...

despite the fact that such a china-wall dont serve any purpose (or maybe it will, but then its also ok to get it up quickly), since you also have to put units on castle tiles (else the ooponent will take it), and most units can be killed anyway by a better unit .... no matter if they stand on a castle or not ...

... if i make it that you can only build one castle a turn (which would mean for example, that building a castle sets the moves to 0, it automatically means that the worker cant go back to the city on his turn.)

also if a worker can only build 1 castle per turn, bulding 5 castles a worker would need 5 turns, and in 5 turns a game can easily change completely, 5 turns is a very long time in conquest

.. the castles are just the 60% def hexes that the humans (or any other race) can probably use to some extent


and even more: what benefit would it have if a builder can only build 1 castle per round ?

(other then he probably end up on the castle tile and nobody can use it on that round anyway, and the worker also wont be able to get back to the city which means an economic loss. <<------ this was ironic, of course these are all good reason to make a worker be able to build as many castles as he has MOVES)



so in general building castles is no big deal, it should not take too much turns, and should be of course useable as soon as possible. 1 turn is a long time in conquest, i often expierienced this, you simply cant just "stand" around for a turn doing nothing - and wsting dozens of turns for getting some castles up makes them not very useful.




of course we may argue about if it is good at all to be able to build castles -

[Hiebe]

Now castles will have something to do and building one per turn takes forever it would be worth to be added on.

Mabuse. Now I have tried at maps cut I keep getting stuck at landscapes and on the middle earth map the size of it would be huge.
Ex. Rohans in the middle an be worth a lot but it's small and need about 5 vills but in the NW part of the map you hve hobbiton and the town if Bree I may just getbto build one part and expand to the other parts. Lukebthe battle of minus terius between gondor and the orcs.

I also ha another idea. What about smaller scaled maps like and vill= one house in real life. So you could use outpost and have different villages and have castle to defend or control. I may try this map first since it's the weekend for me

Is there ever going to be a championship for Conquest?

[Araja]

Okay, now I get it

[Mabuse]

i think some mainline maps are also worth to be converted to CONQUEST.
Of course they may get modified to some extend then.

some maps i have in mind:
-----------------------------
note: not all maps may support 6 players, some may just support 4 or less players for example)

the player numbers indicate what could be (imo) an appropriate player number for that map



current maps (for comparison):
--------------------------------
Europe, 6 Players (1920 square tiles)
Wesnoth, 6 Players (2397 st)
Crusades, 6 Players (2450 st)
Jel Wan Island, 6 Players (3264 st)


mainline maps:
---------------
Cynsaun Battlefield, 4 players (1681 square tiles)
Castle Hopping Island, 2 Players (777 st)
King of the Hill, 4 Players (1296 st)
Weldyn Channel, 2 Players (638 st)
Rough Land, 6 players (3600 st)

[SnowOwl]

Mabuse, or somebody, could u pls make a map with old units? Means militia, serg, horseman, lieu and general? All the same but old units
New units r interesting, but most of players just dont like it, cause its all going to gold, mostly
So, there is no more blitz tactic or easy defense, since there r pikemans and assasins, and boat backstabs
It would be just fine to have such a map to host it with a company of old good players

P.S.
Btw, the more complicated the game, the harder to get new players, its kinda sad

[Mabuse]

@owl:
feel free to edit the recruitment lists as you wish (that is: delete all the unwanted units in your case). its enough if the host has the changes. so you can always edit the recruitlists for yourself. i dont feel like uploading a reduced version of conquest.


right now im a bit short of time, so all updates on this are delayed - a lot probably.
(maybe im just leaving it as it is right now - it seems not too bad after all)

side note: i thought more about the recruits have noe moves and no attack thingy, and i think (after all) its best we leave it as it currently is. so new units have 1 move and 1 attack .

i also got rid of the "right click on hex next to city to recruit idea" at least it will still be restricted to "flat" terrain, this ios to make it possible to make ceratin cities have more "recruit-volume" than othre cites, and also for balance (it wil change the balance of some maps, if you can recruit on "non-flat" hexes

also no changes top region boni


so overworked/adapted list of (possible) changes:


- distance of friendly villages (in capitol mode) reduced to 7

- light cav and infantry (3 gold units) for almost every race

- razing city option, need a strong unit for it (total dmg of 100 required), and no adjacent enemy units, units needs an attack for it and will lose all remaing moves
...razed cities can be stil used for board/unboard

- razing castle option, same as raze City

- rebuild city option, need a worker for it, and no adjacent enemy units, unit needs an attack and will lose all moves, cost around: 10 gold

- build castle Option, need a worker for it, and no adjacent enemy units, cost around: 3 gold
(you may build up to 5 castles per worker on a turn, since a worker has move 5, so it can move, build and move on - if it makes sense to build that many castles is another point, also you should consider that a worker who ends his turn not on a village will not produce any gold this round)
...castles cannot be build on razed cities

- new maps (converted/modified mainline maps for example)

- option to select strengh of enemy cities for capitol mode
(Weak (Militia only), Medium (Infantry only), Strong (Cavalry), Very Strong (Pikeman) and Random (Randomly assigned Militia, Infantry, Cavalry or Pikeman))

- Than will be changed to Tahn on Wesnoth map
- slightly reduced costs and XP for REINFORCE option

- ENTRENCH/FORTIFY Option
...can only be used by Infantry units
...unit gets +10% defense for all Terrains
...unit gets +20% defnse on CASTLE hexes
...unit loses all moves
...units gets 0 moves on next turn
...no adjacent enemy units


- new kind of dock may get added
(just a non-city-place where ships can board/unboard, units loses all moves/attack on unboard)
...may consist of several terrain types

---------------------------------------------------------








i also feel like making a "conquest 1942" mod, which will be bring the WWII-Feeling into the "conquest universe"

To make it more interesting lot things will change though, it will be a lot inspired by the "PanzerGeneralSeries" from SSI.

its all in the planning stage, but a few things can be said:


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all units will have "swarm" attack-special and 10 strikes.
so a 90% damaged unit has only 1 strike

in essence that means that weakened units are less effective in combat

im not sure if units get berserk attack though
--------------

--------------
reinforce will be surely implemented
--------------

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real ranged artilery, flak
(im also thinking about "defensive fire", which means that units which attack a unit and are within range of an enemy artilery get attacked by it, before the combat takes place - same goes for flaks (which will work versus airunits though))
--------------

-----------------
different damage types (hard, soft, air, naval, ground, universal)
(HARD is afecting armored ground units, SOFT is effecting unarmored ground units, AIR is versus airunits, NAVAL ... as you think its effective versus ships, "GROUND" affects all ground units, "UNIVERSAL" aqffecft all units)

example a "tank" will have 0% resistance versus HARD, GROUND and UNIVERSAL weapons, so weapons of theses kinds do full damage, a tank will have 100% resistance versus SOFT, AIR AND NAVAL weapons. so you can only attack tanks (or other units) with certain weapons.

also a tank with a HARD and a SOFT weapon may be effective versus other armored/unarmored ground vehicles (but with different effectiveness, since the hard weapons may be te stronger one or the soft one may be the stronger one), but cant harm air and sea units. (GROUND and UNIVERSAL damage types are in case that a weapon may affect all ground units (or all units) and you dont want to put in hundrets of different weapons)
----------------------

----------------------
entrench
infantry units will be able to entrench (perhaps only in certain terrains, but for sure in villages), and each round they will entrench more. up to a defense of 90% on that hex. other infantry units will be able to attack with some kind of marksman ability ("at least 40% hit chance"), so hey will ignore hvy entrechments.
-------------------------



final note:
i may also completely abandon the WWII idea and make instead a more complicated version of CONQUEST, perhaps inspired by PANZERGENERAL (but with differences adapted to a medival, ancient, fantasy themed era), but it may feature the "swarming" thingy (weakened units are weaker in combat), entrench (perhas ewomwhat easier, with higher boni on castle terrain though, so entrenching on castle terrain may give +20% def (so it makes 80% def for infantry)

so right now im just toying around with ideas (in my head) due to lack of time
so a more or less serious WWII era we would need quite some GFX (or least a few gfx)


as said conquest as it is right now is ok and playable, we could make a conquest 1942, or a conquest 0AD (in ancient times, including greeks, romany, egypt, celts and whatnot) with a slightly deeper combat

[ViK]

I liked conquest for being a very simple game. The updates are making it more and more complex.

I understand having defense units (pikeman) , and more unit types and peasants in the current context is more or less useless. 1 full turn of all users takes on average 15-18 mins. (Longer in Lich hosted games whr he likes 6 mins/turn ). Peasants can be useful in very long games that can last more than 20 turns maybe.

Also, I do not like the option of workers building castles, ports and what not.

Also, Base Income in 'more' category is a bug, not a feature. People started playing with 'fog' for a reason. I think it should be left for the hosts to decide if each other can see the income, not the creator/updater of the game. With more category, there is nothing to hide, which will only increase the chances of teaming up on the stronger guy, and thus increasing the timeline of the game.

[miati]

While i really like the idea of WWII conquest, i am a bit worried. There is so much good complicated unpopular mods... People want to enter the game and play, not to learn many different rules and features.

___________________________________________________________________________

new map for conquest - Middle-earth

unpack conquest_middle_earth.cfg to \userdata\data\add-ons\Conquest\scenarios
and map to \userdata\data\add-ons\Conquest\maps

[Alistar]

I agree
I hot conquest but less people join bechouse there's so much rules
You just want a simple game
Thats all

[Hiebe]

Yeah maybe we got too carried away tryimg to make it awesome.

For me i like conquest now so lets keep it the same. Let new people join and learn.