I'm missing the thugs on multi

[Kakistocrat]

I started playing version 8.3 multi recently and found that the "thug" unit had been removed from the knalgan recruit list, so I'd like to make a case for returning it.

As I see it, the Knalgans are THE most versatile race as far as terrain bonuses go, and, lacking any mages or healers on multi, they should retain this advantage. Removing the thug makes it so that the only melee unit that the knalgans have that can operate well in forest is the theif, which, as good as they are, will just not cut it for a frontal assault (I was rudely awakened to this yesterday by ryn 8< ).

[scott]

The thug was replaced by giving a hammer to the dwarf (if you didn't know).

It's an effort to push outlaws out of the Knalgan alliance.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Removing the thug makes it so that the only melee unit that the knalgans have that can operate well in forest is the theif,.

Wait... don't the Dwarves now have one move in forest? Or am I confused?

[miyo]

http://units.wesnoth.org

and click any dwarvish unit to get more information.

- Miyo

[Jetrel]

Removing the thug makes it so that the only melee unit that the knalgans have that can operate well in forest is the theif,.

Wait... don't the Dwarves now have one move in forest? Or am I confused?

Yes, and halelujiah for that. Now that dwarves don't move slower than woses, they make a decent tank for the rebel faction in HttT.

It's nothing to worry about, because their defense there still sucks, and elves still outpace them in the forest.

[Kakistocrat]

Let me clarify: I am NOT worried about impact attacks, and if I wanted to use dwarves in the forest, I would use them. I'm not terribly worried about movement either. But dwarves just don't have the same defensive cover that thugs did, which means that knalgans now get completely shafted by elves in a forest instead of actually being able to slow the elvish advance.

[AT]

As soon as a get a computer here (my linux boxen arrived on Sat) I'll be able to continue my Dwarvish Balance overhaul. Getting owned in forest is one of the things the Runemaster will adress.

[miyo]

I do not agree with removing Thug from Knalgan Alliance. Seems Cedric did the commit, I will talk with him to find out why this was done.

Actually I do not agree with getting out of Outlaws from Knalgan Alliance at all. Outlaws are needed for Knalgan Alliance for fighting decently in e.g. forest.

Unless there are very good reasons I will add it back (for 0.8.4). And it is not a reason that someone wants Dwarves to be balanced on their own (as "racial" faction).

And if they will be removed: get all replacement units, and then remove all outlaws in one chunk... don't start removing units one by one.

- Miyo

[miyo]

I have added Thugs back to Knalgan Alliance on default era. Also noticed that 'Age of Heroes' was missing many 2nd level units, so I added them.

http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs ... xt&r2=text

- Miyo

[Jetrel]

no no, miyo, it's not *someone* that wants dwarves to be capable as their own faction - there are several of us.


Still, though, I must say that each faction should have it's own weaknesses and strengths.


Dwarves *should* suck vs. elves in forest - in fact, everyone should.
Elves should be able to seek tactical refuge in forests, just as dwarves can in mountains.

(also)
Elves, by and large, have hideous strength at ranged work. Dwarves, have good resistance, and without having certain conspicuous weaknesses like the undead have.


Dwarves should be able to eat elves in melee on grassland - if this is not the case, we need some changes coming.

[miyo]

Dave already gave 'ok' to my restore of Thugs to Knalgan Alliance in default era.

There is nothing to see here, move on.

- Miyo

[turin]

dwarves should not get more than 5 units (nor should orcs, or goblins (for this they're different races) nor drakes...)

if they got too many, it would make humans like any other race, and lose the human perspective the game has, IMHO.

[miyo]

dwarves to be capable as their own faction - there are several of us.

Thugs do not need to be removed on default era. You can play Classic era =)

- Miyo

[lilepo2023]

i think what they are doin is slowly gettin all of the outlaws inot they own faction, for the leader may i suggest "The King of Thieves"?

[AT]

Ya, the thug being removed was my fault; but with the addition of the Defender and runemaster lines, I think there may be alot of units.
Here are my views on the issue:

1. I do use the Poacher and Footpad in multiplayer.

2. But, I am one of the many people who don't like the outlaws being on Knaglons. (use search function to find alot of threads including devs who also don't.)

So, I am torn. I think that we have to err in favor of gameplay over any objection to outlaws. (So my removale of Thug was in err; I apologize.)

However, once I get my laptop back (or my linux box running) I will be creating the Runemaster line and balancing the defender line. At this point, there will have to be more developer discussion on the matter.