Mermen Tree Proposal

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » August 26th, 2004, 3:21 pm

I prefer the original. The others just don't look defensive enough.

autolycus · Post by **autolycus** » August 26th, 2004, 3:28 pm

When thinking of an artistic style for merman armour and weapons, it strikes me that underwater, in a 3D environment, manoeuvrability is more important than on land. So a shield can be a solid bulwark like what EP prefers, and it would work well on land, but not underwater - in 3D where your enemy can approach from below or above, your best hope of defence is something you can move around and interpose more quickly.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » August 26th, 2004, 3:32 pm

autolycus wrote:When thinking of an artistic style for merman armour and weapons, it strikes me that underwater, in a 3D environment, manoeuvrability is more important than on land. So a shield can be a solid bulwark like what EP prefers, and it would work well on land, but not underwater - in 3D where your enemy can approach from below or above, your best hope of defence is something you can move around and interpose more quickly.

If the shield is curved properly, it's still easy to move around. Remember that water is more dense, as well, so weight is less of an issue.

autolycus · Post by **autolycus** » August 26th, 2004, 3:37 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:If the shield is curved properly, it's still easy to move around. Remember that water is more dense, as well, so weight is less of an issue.

Errrr... water being denser than air, resistance from the water is more of an issue - a shield with large cut-outs or streamlined scalloped edges would be easier to move in water than a smoothly-curved lamina with a uniform edge; and this advantage would be greater in water than on land. It's not weight that was my issue at all - although now that you mention it, mass and associated inertia might be.

Post by **quartex** » August 26th, 2004, 3:38 pm

The split-shield looks cool, but it also doesn't look as much like a shield. It's harder to recognize.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » August 26th, 2004, 3:40 pm

autolycus wrote:Errrr... water being denser than air, resistance from the water is more of an issue - a shield with large cut-outs or streamlined scalloped edges would be easier to move in water than a smoothly-curved lamina with a uniform edge

What? One has more surface are to be resisted on, wouldn't it be harder? and wouldn't a solid shield with a clean single edge be easy to move?

autolycus · Post by **autolycus** » August 26th, 2004, 3:47 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:
autolycus wrote:Errrr... water being denser than air, resistance from the water is more of an issue - a shield with large cut-outs or streamlined scalloped edges would be easier to move in water than a smoothly-curved lamina with a uniform edge
What? One has more surface are to be resisted on, wouldn't it be harder? and wouldn't a solid shield with a clean single edge be easy to move?

Try this experiment. Get a large piece of plywood (say 2' x 4' x .5") and wave it around. Now drill lots of .5" holes in it without compromising it too much. Wave it around. It's now easier to move and offers less resistance to air. Think about water relative to air.

Try this thought-experiment. A curved shield with a clean single edge is like a wing. What happens when you move it quickly? It develops lift, yes? The side opposite to the direction of movement develops a partial vacuum, yes? Do these features help you move it freely around? No...

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » August 26th, 2004, 3:53 pm

autolycus wrote:Try this thought-experiment. A curved shield with a clean single edge is like a wing. What happens when you move it quickly? It develops lift, yes?

Wrong! Wings only develop lift when you move them in a straight line!

autolycus · Post by **autolycus** » August 26th, 2004, 4:53 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:
autolycus wrote:Try this thought-experiment. A curved shield with a clean single edge is like a wing. What happens when you move it quickly? It develops lift, yes?
Wrong! Wings only develop lift when you move them in a straight line!

Sigh. Lift, drag, whatever; point is that for a smooth lamina, you will have major resistance to movement along at least one axis. This is why banners normally have holes poked through them, so that they don't act as sails.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » August 26th, 2004, 5:01 pm

autolycus wrote:point is that for a smooth lamina, you will have major resistance to movement along at least one axis.

One is few enough. We're not trying to get this guy to be able to shield-bash, too.

P.S.: The shield would work fine with lots of holes in it... and they don't have to be visible holes.

Post by **turin** » August 26th, 2004, 9:48 pm

I prefer the split-shield, I think i looks more realistic and better artistically. It makes the mermen seem less like just fish-tailed humans, and more like their own race.

Post by **Boucman** » August 26th, 2004, 9:53 pm

the only things I don't like about the split shield are that

1) under water the only effective attacks are piercing, so a split shield wouldn't be that effective (realisticargument, can be dismissed)

2) it deseperately makes me think of a Tie-fighter

Post by **Jetrel** » August 26th, 2004, 9:53 pm

Yes - one is few enough - he does not need to move the shield in an out from his body - he needs to be able to rotate it quickly around him

Thus, the shield will be getting some sharper edges - inspired by those crackin' nice shields the elves had in lotr.

Part of the issue with this shield is it is not merely to defend from water, but to protect from arrows and such from above - this is why he gets the steadfast ability, and why the split-shield design wouldn't work, per se -

he needs a rather larger surface to defend with, but as autolycus said, it should have sharp edges so that he can quickly reposition it to defend from whatever it is that he is being attacked by.

I'm not sure if he should get first-strike...

It's also worth noting that the mermen have been nearly agreed to thrive in shallow waters, and make their communities there, where it is relatively safe. I'll be making, soon enough, the things that make the deep water unsafe. Many of the weapons of the mermen/naga (thrown javelins, for example) are intended for use just above the surface - they may be targeting an enemy below, but the javelins just don't fly underwater.

Post by **quartex** » August 26th, 2004, 10:43 pm

It would be nice to get some more Horros of the Deep besides Cuttle Fish and Sea Serpents.

Firstsrike would be an interesting ability for certain mermen. It's not used much, but could be appropriate for some units.

I like the way this race is developing.

Post by **Jetrel** » August 27th, 2004, 3:14 am

The merman hunter...

as regards the funny protrusion sangel had made for the forehead - I think that that "crest" should be a be a distinctly male development, which happens as they get older.

the one for the netcaster right now is about the right length for the entangler, which means the netcaster's one will be shorter. Also, I'm not sure they will be such a stark white - we are trying to make more more of a dorsal fin on the forehead, rather than a wang hanging off of the forehead, as neorice had inerred.