New Dark Adept Branch - CONTINUED

[miyo]

Just a reminder,

This far there has be no need for such actions, and I hope we never need to take such actions.

This does not mean we do not have the rights we have just talked about. It means that current core devs and campaign developers have been able to agree on these matters without flame wars about them in forum.

A lot of development communication (core devs, contributors, campaign designers) goes in IRC. Forum does not tell you the whole view of Wesnoth development.

http://irclog.wesnoth.org

- Miyo

[Bandobras]

I, as a very humble player, would be very glad if the various campaigns shared all (most) of the units, with the exception of plot-specific heros or monsters. Another exception are campaigns in a very different world, such as cyberpunk, heroic RPG, etc.

I would be especially upset at units with similar name/pictures but different powers in various campaings. I would also be upset to see Elves Variant A, Elves Variant B and Elves Variant C in campains, especially if the differences are small and hidden (e.g. one additional advancement possibility for some unit) and so may slip past my conciousness, making me angry 1 year after finishing the campaign, when everyone starts talking about this feature I missed.

With regards to all the creative folk,
Your Consumer

[Elvish_Pillager]

We're I to make a custom campaign I could presumably add whatever I want (assuming it doesn't break any laws) and post it on these forums. I could add news units and whatever. But if it were to become an official campaign, I would lose that freedom, becuase now it is an official part of Wesnoth?

Not at all. You can still modify your own copy of your campaign as much as you like. Only the Official Copy Of Your Campaign would you not control completely.

[Mutxiko]

Whew... I've been away for two days, and so many things happenned !

Elvish Pillager, I am not against you ( nor am I against anyone in the forums ), but I think that you should post more explained and constructed posts... I mean, why have you changed your mind about the idea so quickly :
( page 2 )

YES heals. And cures at level 3. The undead could use a healer, and it makes some sense, especially if it's a choice between healing and Plague.

( page 3 )

I am opposed to Undead having healing.

???


A complete, detailed explanation with logical arguments would be VERY APPRECIATED...

I have just watched the IRC Log for the first time ( now I feel the very need for getting an IRC Client on VersionTracker ), and the talk between Miyo and Quartex made me think a lot about the reasons I have to try and have the unit-branch included... It is completely true that I would be very proud of having some of my work included in the game ( well, it is the famous human-seeking of glory ! ), but I also feel that instead of making the Undead closer to the other factions, the implementation of the Branch would make the "evil energies" much more obvious ( which is strongly linked with the dark-energy-channelling animations ).



I would be really happy if the Developers like Miyo, Cedric, FMunoz, AT just gave their plain opinion about the project.

I AM WAITING...

Edited : I have found an IRC Client...

[Elvish_Pillager]

( page 2 )

YES heals. And cures at level 3. The undead could use a healer, and it makes some sense, especially if it's a choice between healing and Plague.

( page 3 )

I am opposed to Undead having healing.

???


A complete, detailed explanation with logical arguments would be VERY APPRECIATED...

I AM confused.

Complete, detailed explanation with logical arguments:
Healing for undead is ridiculous. How can you give life to the undead? Vampire bats are about as close as it gets. A Dark Adept upgrade which supports the dark energies of nearby units is a good alternative to a Necromancer who creates new ones. Thus, this has heals and Necromancer has plague. However lacking this, an undead adept choosing to support undead, or do more damage? Who wouldn't choose damage when they converted to the Dark Powers to do damage? Obviously they would always wish to deal more damage. Thus, the choice would again be ridiculous. I support a level 2 branch with heals if and only if the Necromancer gains Plague. Otherwise I support a level 3 branch with Darkens and better melee.

See, I told you I was confused.

[J-ser]

Devs i would like your thoughts about this line. Flat out say it sucks or that'll try to put it in the game ASAP, i just want to know where this discussion is going. I think a darken/leadership second branch for the dark adept would be great, but i'm starting to to like the idea of healing less and less.Please respond soon.

[Dave]

I think it's reasonable for the dark adept to have an alternative advancement. I don't think it has to be some super-unit with three different abilities though. Just a nice, relatively subtle difference.

How about it still has no melee attack, but more powerful missile attacks? It could have both cold and fire attacks from long range, but no melee attack at all, and less hitpoints than the Necromancer. Its missile attacks would be more deadly though, and it'd perhaps be faster...

David

[quartex]

In general I have hard from dave that he doesn't want more units with more abilities. Having tons units of abilities draws away from the main emphasis of the game, how defending on different terrain and different attacks fit together. So often new units will have different attacks, but the devs tends not to give them many or any abilities. That's what you're seeing here, it might be cool to have a ranged only, weaker alternative to the dark adept, but the chance of getting leadership or healing is small.

[autolycus]

As I've said before, and can now elaborate on:

1) Leadership: undead 'leadership' is something like 'tighter control of undead units by necromancer' - think about it from a L2 dark adept's point of view. Some necromantic adepts would have this ability because they might choose to study the art of optimizing their existing troops rather than make new ones.

2) Healing: undead 'healing' is something like 'repairing suboptimal units instead of wasting energy making new ones'. It is cheaper, for example, to upkeep existing units than it is to make new ones.

These definitions aren't new. They've been made earlier in this thread.

I therefore don't understand EP's objection re 'more damage'. The necromancer who chooses 'healing' is likely going to do more damage for less cost by keeping his units fighting longer. I can see Dave's point of view, but in that case, having a choice of 'healing' OR 'leadership' for dark adepts makes good sense without making them too powerful. Just bear in mind that the 'healing' and 'leadership' for undead troops have a different base concept from the real versions. EP, did you read my earlier posts on these definitions?

[Mutxiko]

FIXED STATS FOR THE BRANCH :

------------------------------"Dark Captain" :
- Hitpoints : 32 ?
- Movement type : Undeadfoot
- Movement : 5
- Experience : 150 ?
- Level : 2
- Alignement : Chaotic
- Advance to : Dark Commander
- Cost : 40 ?
- Usage : Mixed fighter / Healer ?
- Ability : Leadership
- Attack :

name = dark cry
type = cold
special = slow
range = long
damage = 8
number = 2




--------------------------------"Dark Commander" :
- Hitpoints : 48 ?
- Movement type : Undeadfoot
- Movement : 5
- Experience : --
- Level : 3
- Alignement : Chaotic
- Advance to : Null
- Cost : 120 ?
- Usage : Mixed fighter / Healer ?
- Ability : Leadership, ( Heals ), Darkens [opposite of "illuminates"]
- Attack :

name = dark yell
type = cold
special = slow
range = long
damage = 9
number = 3


For the 2nd level graphics we would only have to modify the base picture ( remove the sword ) and the leadership picture.

[Mutxiko]

Should I write a darkcaptain.cfg file ?

[lilepo2023]

yes i think u should, if in the end it doesnt work out at least u have some code, if it does then ur on ur way...

[J-ser]

Thank you dave for flat out saying you liked it. i say the fixed stats look great, exept for one thing. I think the range attack for the 3rd level unit should be called dark screech or dark scream, but not dark yell. It just doesn't sound right. but besides that it looks great!

[Elvish_Pillager]

Leadership, Heals, Darkens, Slow...

REALLY, cut down on the special stuff.

[quartex]

Leadership, Heals, Darkens, Slow...

REALLY, cut down on the special stuff.

He's right. No way you're going to get that many abilities saddled on one unit.