Rogue Mage
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first priority should be making a faction different, and only if this is acomplished, you should worry making them complete. And we shouldn't compare Unit by unit, but instead race by race, or facition by faction instead.
I for example think the poacher, and the thug, are just to ordinary. They should have either something that makes them more special or be removed. I like the footpad, because it doesn't have a coressponding unit in other factions.
I like the thief for the same reason.
to make the thug more unique, we could reduce its Melee attack by one third, give him charching and elusive foot instead.
Trappers and Thiefs don't fit together at all. Thiefs are found in large cities, where they can submerge in the anonimity of the masses. Trappers are found in the raw nature, where civilication hasn't touched it yet. I can't think how the are even suposed to meet, I definatly can't emagine how they are suposed to work together. Its almost like adding mermen to the dwarves.
I for example think the poacher, and the thug, are just to ordinary. They should have either something that makes them more special or be removed. I like the footpad, because it doesn't have a coressponding unit in other factions.
I like the thief for the same reason.
to make the thug more unique, we could reduce its Melee attack by one third, give him charching and elusive foot instead.
Trappers and Thiefs don't fit together at all. Thiefs are found in large cities, where they can submerge in the anonimity of the masses. Trappers are found in the raw nature, where civilication hasn't touched it yet. I can't think how the are even suposed to meet, I definatly can't emagine how they are suposed to work together. Its almost like adding mermen to the dwarves.
I like the idea of a magic melee attack. Would 5-3 still be appropriate if it got special=magic? I am also unsure how to then justify a magic ranged attack other than fire or cold (like Elvish Pillager suggests). He could throw astral blades, but I would rather just keep the damage type cold.
Recap on proposed stats:
melee: 5-3 blade (magic)
ranged: 6-2 cold (magic)
or
melee: 4-3 blade (magic)
ranged: 6-2 cold (magic)
Recap on proposed stats:
melee: 5-3 blade (magic)
ranged: 6-2 cold (magic)
or
melee: 4-3 blade (magic)
ranged: 6-2 cold (magic)
But surely a southpaw mage would be more sinisterscott wrote:I made him a righty. This might lead to better animations.
I feeling that this unit would be better as a 2nd level and another path from Mage - otherwise to balance at first level either a lot of XP for advancement or having somewhat weak attacks might be required... Though, of course, a slightly higher cost could balance this (obviously if you have to buy a sword as well all the magic equipment it'll be more expensive to get yourself ready to fight!). Would there be two versions later, one more magic and one more melee orientated? I'd vote for magic improving slightly more than melee and only one track (if only to keep the work down in the graphics & balance departments for now - better to finish one thing than start two or three) as it preserves more difference between the unit and some of the other units in the game. Never getting a real artillery level of magic, but having a good defensive melee (ie one that might make someone think twice about what to attack you with if they have a choice) would be interesting (and a 70% hit of magic is always useful to finish off awkward units so fairly high XP to go up should be attainable.
I would rather have the Mage use an piercing attack, if its magic. I can rather think of a magically advanced spear, with runes engraved on it, that having him a magic sword. This seemt to be rather something for Paladins to use. Or some hero like the Sword of fire for Konrad.
Can we have teleporting for the second level unit? Or as a branch for the thief then. I seorously would like to see the outlaws having teleportation ability!
I was thinking of letting the rougue mage have no ranged magic attack at all. He could use a sling, if he has to have a ranged weapon.
The poacher could shoot fire arrows, or arrows that slow. If they slow, we can reduce the damge somewhat. But I would serously reconsider the name of the Level two unit. Why should a trapper be an outlaw, anyway. Isn't that a regular proffesion! Why should people that work in that profession be outlaws?!
Can we have teleporting for the second level unit? Or as a branch for the thief then. I seorously would like to see the outlaws having teleportation ability!
I was thinking of letting the rougue mage have no ranged magic attack at all. He could use a sling, if he has to have a ranged weapon.
The poacher could shoot fire arrows, or arrows that slow. If they slow, we can reduce the damge somewhat. But I would serously reconsider the name of the Level two unit. Why should a trapper be an outlaw, anyway. Isn't that a regular proffesion! Why should people that work in that profession be outlaws?!
I can see where this would be a good progression from the L1 mage... that might work better for stats, but keeping this guy at L1 gives more flexibility for upgrades (more paths and units possible).wobbegong wrote:But surely a southpaw mage would be more sinisterscott wrote:I made him a righty. This might lead to better animations.
I feeling that this unit would be better as a 2nd level and another path from Mage - otherwise to balance at first level either a lot of XP for advancement or having somewhat weak attacks might be required... Though, of course, a slightly higher cost could balance this (obviously if you have to buy a sword as well all the magic equipment it'll be more expensive to get yourself ready to fight!). Would there be two versions later, one more magic and one more melee orientated? I'd vote for magic improving slightly more than melee and only one track (if only to keep the work down in the graphics & balance departments for now - better to finish one thing than start two or three) as it preserves more difference between the unit and some of the other units in the game. Never getting a real artillery level of magic, but having a good defensive melee (ie one that might make someone think twice about what to attack you with if they have a choice) would be interesting (and a 70% hit of magic is always useful to finish off awkward units so fairly high XP to go up should be attainable.
I envision him to eventually be a human bad-guy version of Kalenz who has both melee and magic attacks. To be more specific, I was thinking of a cross between the FF red mage and James Earl Jones' character in Conan the Barbarian who was a warrior enemy leader with some magical ability. It's a fine line to walk without getting into dark adept/commander territory.
I want to fix the concept now so the stats and art can get some attention. I originally thought about 2 upgrade lines, but I agree about starting small. I think these L2 and L3 proposed stats are not that strong, but I don't want to underestimate the potentcy of magic melee and a cold attack.
L1 - rogue mage
melee: 5-3 (blade)
ranged: 6-2 (cold)
HP: 30
L2 - ? shadow mage (or black mage)
melee: 6-3 (magic)
ranged: 8-2 (cold)
Leadership
HP: 38
L3 - black lord (or shadow lord)
melee: 8-3 (magic)
ranged: 9-2 (cold)
Leadership
HP: 48
As always the names are open for debate (my naming ideas are never popular)
Scott: to pick up on your idea...
L1 Rogue Mage (light blue-grey robes - not quite innocent blue, certainly not white, matches his cold powers)
L2 Grey Mage (medium blue-grey robes with some dark grey shadow - certainly not innocent, is actively a rebel now, colder and darker, disdains fire)
L3 Shadow Mage (dark blue-grey robes with some light grey highlights so that it's obvious he's not a dark adept or black mage or whatever, he has turned to the full-time use of cold and opposes fire)
L1 Rogue Mage (light blue-grey robes - not quite innocent blue, certainly not white, matches his cold powers)
L2 Grey Mage (medium blue-grey robes with some dark grey shadow - certainly not innocent, is actively a rebel now, colder and darker, disdains fire)
L3 Shadow Mage (dark blue-grey robes with some light grey highlights so that it's obvious he's not a dark adept or black mage or whatever, he has turned to the full-time use of cold and opposes fire)
as kingfishers catch fire
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
Not Gray Mage. It sounds like a level 2 of the Silver Mage.
"ILLEGITIMIS NON CARBORUNDUM"
Father of Flight to Freedom
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/FlightToFreedom
Father of Flight to Freedom
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/FlightToFreedom
Shadow Mage, Dusk Mage, Twilight Mage?
I'm trying to convey two concepts at a time, visually and verbally:
1) concept of a mage who is against the use of hot, burning, loud magic.
2) concept of a mage who is neutral, not lawful/chaotic or 'evil/good'.
He expresses this by his colours and his title.
Note: personally, I don't think of 'grey' as necessarily related to silver - in heraldry and in the existing graphics, silver is more akin to white; however, I guess people who think in a 'metallic' sort of way would see silver -> grey (the next in the progression should be black though, think about it).
I'm trying to convey two concepts at a time, visually and verbally:
1) concept of a mage who is against the use of hot, burning, loud magic.
2) concept of a mage who is neutral, not lawful/chaotic or 'evil/good'.
He expresses this by his colours and his title.
Note: personally, I don't think of 'grey' as necessarily related to silver - in heraldry and in the existing graphics, silver is more akin to white; however, I guess people who think in a 'metallic' sort of way would see silver -> grey (the next in the progression should be black though, think about it).
as kingfishers catch fire
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
First I want to apologize for being a little bit of toppic. I guess I am following to many threads at once. So I will concentrate more on the rougemage, and leave the other outlaws for now.
Why would a mage have Leadership in an group of outlaws?
I still believe this mage should rather have teleportation at some point. I have to commit it would be the only mage with leadership, an by that seperating him from the rest of the mages. But while I understand that a dark adept can become leadership, I don't see the reason for him to have it. Well he would probaply be the best educated in the bunch, I can't imagine his education to be helpful to have authority. I am sure he will be respected, but they won't follow him, as they wouldn't accept him as being one of their own. His education would rather seperate him from the other outlaws. He would probaply be the advicer of the leader, but he wouldn't lead himself. To have a very subtle way of him using magic, let him move on all teraintype with only one Movement cost. So he would become a magic scout unit, with magic melee Attack. I mean having a mage being used as scout, is something special. And it makes sense that an Outlaw mage uses magic to be able to run fast. But if you want it beeing a suportive unit, it should have stickyness as an aura effect. Every enemy Unit adjacent to him can only move by one. So it would be like an aura slow effect.
Why would a mage have Leadership in an group of outlaws?
I still believe this mage should rather have teleportation at some point. I have to commit it would be the only mage with leadership, an by that seperating him from the rest of the mages. But while I understand that a dark adept can become leadership, I don't see the reason for him to have it. Well he would probaply be the best educated in the bunch, I can't imagine his education to be helpful to have authority. I am sure he will be respected, but they won't follow him, as they wouldn't accept him as being one of their own. His education would rather seperate him from the other outlaws. He would probaply be the advicer of the leader, but he wouldn't lead himself. To have a very subtle way of him using magic, let him move on all teraintype with only one Movement cost. So he would become a magic scout unit, with magic melee Attack. I mean having a mage being used as scout, is something special. And it makes sense that an Outlaw mage uses magic to be able to run fast. But if you want it beeing a suportive unit, it should have stickyness as an aura effect. Every enemy Unit adjacent to him can only move by one. So it would be like an aura slow effect.
Sorry to differ with you about the teleportation, but I disagree on 2 areas: giving him 1. that or 2. any abilities not already coded in the game. The teleportation would really have to be justified by the guy's persona/story and I don't feel it's there yet. The nonexistent features I oppose for obvious reasons. (If he were going to be a mainstream game character I would feel differently).
It might help to not think of him as a mage so much as a thug who learned some magic. Or a mediocre magic user who learned thuggery. His magic gave him a boost in the thug pecking order so he has gathered a following of henchmen (who surely attack the hero one at a time and not actually watch the hero die in the elaborate death contraption). He eventually becomes top dog who is just as strong as the henchmen in a fight but has the magic to back him up. If he is just an evil outlaw mage, then it impinges too much on the dark adept, who I assume is also human (maybe not).
I'm going to go back to drawing.
It might help to not think of him as a mage so much as a thug who learned some magic. Or a mediocre magic user who learned thuggery. His magic gave him a boost in the thug pecking order so he has gathered a following of henchmen (who surely attack the hero one at a time and not actually watch the hero die in the elaborate death contraption). He eventually becomes top dog who is just as strong as the henchmen in a fight but has the magic to back him up. If he is just an evil outlaw mage, then it impinges too much on the dark adept, who I assume is also human (maybe not).
I'm going to go back to drawing.
Cyrus: I don't like the teleportation ability if it is going to duplicate the silver mage's. If it were a radius = 5 ability or something, it might be good, but earlier, we have already ruled out such a form of teleportation. I also don't agree with the slow aura; firstly because it's a new and complicated property, and secondly because it means he has to be adjacent to several enemies to get the most out of it. That's suicidal.
Scott: I guess a rogue mage who picked up magic skills along the way (as in rogue->mage) would learn things like how to put fires out quickly, hence the cold magic, and how to hide well (shadow?). If he is to be support rather than leader, perhaps nightstalk would be better than leadership as a unit attribute. This would make him a unique enough mage, he's not evil, just shadowy. Your point about he's not evil is why I'm advocating a grey/blue colour theme for him.
Scott: I guess a rogue mage who picked up magic skills along the way (as in rogue->mage) would learn things like how to put fires out quickly, hence the cold magic, and how to hide well (shadow?). If he is to be support rather than leader, perhaps nightstalk would be better than leadership as a unit attribute. This would make him a unique enough mage, he's not evil, just shadowy. Your point about he's not evil is why I'm advocating a grey/blue colour theme for him.
as kingfishers catch fire
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
I don't like the slow aura for another reason : it's too powerfull.
compared to a shaman, you don't need to hit AND you can target more than one unit. that's way too powerfull for a low level unit, and again it it's a high unit the unit would have to have no other interesting propreties to balance (i.e : slow, no good attacks etc...)
a unit should not have more than one major proprety. that usually makes them unbalanced.
the rogue mage if I understand correctly is going to be a mixed fighter/magician
so it's going to have more HP than the equivalent level mage, a better melee attack, and a cold based ranged attack weaker than the red mage line, but still serious damage...
that would be a great unit. simple, effective, it has it's space in the game, whole strategies can be built around this unit, but it's not an uber-unit that unbalances the game.
moreover, since it's a very simple unit with no special powers, it has more chances of getting in
don't misunderstand me. That ttype of unit is really needed and will be really usefull, it's just that I'm trying to avoid the type of cool super units that everybody is trying to put in wesnoth and the devs are ignoring.
compared to a shaman, you don't need to hit AND you can target more than one unit. that's way too powerfull for a low level unit, and again it it's a high unit the unit would have to have no other interesting propreties to balance (i.e : slow, no good attacks etc...)
a unit should not have more than one major proprety. that usually makes them unbalanced.
the rogue mage if I understand correctly is going to be a mixed fighter/magician
so it's going to have more HP than the equivalent level mage, a better melee attack, and a cold based ranged attack weaker than the red mage line, but still serious damage...
that would be a great unit. simple, effective, it has it's space in the game, whole strategies can be built around this unit, but it's not an uber-unit that unbalances the game.
moreover, since it's a very simple unit with no special powers, it has more chances of getting in
don't misunderstand me. That ttype of unit is really needed and will be really usefull, it's just that I'm trying to avoid the type of cool super units that everybody is trying to put in wesnoth and the devs are ignoring.
I do like the concept of the Rouge Mage. But I had the feeling that since he is a rather simple to use unit, you can just throw in to the battle, does not fit the concept of the outlaws. As I invision the outlaws, they should be forced to avoid open battle. Thez should be forced to use a hit and run technique, but to balance out for this limitation should be given some support in using this strategie, throu the capabilities they do have. So as I said I like the Concept, I believe it rather fits to the dwarves. I think if you have this unit with the outlaws as it is proposed now, people wouldn|t be forced to avoid just fight openly along a front line.
The Idea of giving Teleportation to the outlaw mage, is that I think they do have sympathisants in each village they flagged, which help them to reach any other village they have sympathisants in. I don't think the meaning of a flaged village is the same for the outlaws as it is for the Loyalists. While Loyalists just possess the village by leaving troops there, outlaws simply install a ring of criminals there, or pribe the official leader of the village. The don't really own the village, as the Mafia never owned any part of the world as their teritory, they just install a network of crime. Thief Guildes if you want. So using that network, they can apear in any part of it. You would have to think of teleportation more as the underground railroad which slaves used to reach the north of amerika to become free.
I hope you can understand what I am trying to do. Are you sharing my Philosophy for the Outlaw Concept? Maybe we should first discuss that, before trying to make them a faction of their own. If there is allready such a thing, which everyone else already agreed on, please tell me. Because as long as we have different goals, of what the outlaws should be like, we will not agree any unit. It is not that I want to force anyone to obey my Vision of the outlaws. It is actually not even me who came up with that, but I had the feeling that this is what was Intended when looking on the thief. The Outlaw seems to fit much the same philosophy. So I thought the Rouque Mage should also fit them. I have to admit that the poacher, and the thug lines seem to be rather ordinary units, which would justify the rouque mage as it is proposed now, but i don't think we need another Faction fighting in a regular way. You have allready the northeners you have the elves, you have the Loyalists, you have the dwarves, even the undead are supposed to go into open battle. I guess thats also true for the drakes. I never played against them yet so. I don't think outlaws can separate them selves enough, and will become just a boring Repetition, of other factions, if we don't steer against their usage as fighting in open battle.
So it is not that much the mage that I don't think is unique enough, it is the faction as a whole which is not unique enough, if the mage is added as proposed and mostly agreed now. If we can present a faction or Race, that has a total different feel, in how you play them I am sure they are much more likly to make it in. I am sure many will be tempted to say we already have enough races, which still nead mor work and units. It must be obvios, that they are just differently enough, to have a justification.
Please tell me what you think about this. I will surely adopt your Vision for the faction as a whole, and am sure, I can focus much more on Ideas, you will like, for the rouque mage, if I understand what the faction is suposed to be like.
The Idea of giving Teleportation to the outlaw mage, is that I think they do have sympathisants in each village they flagged, which help them to reach any other village they have sympathisants in. I don't think the meaning of a flaged village is the same for the outlaws as it is for the Loyalists. While Loyalists just possess the village by leaving troops there, outlaws simply install a ring of criminals there, or pribe the official leader of the village. The don't really own the village, as the Mafia never owned any part of the world as their teritory, they just install a network of crime. Thief Guildes if you want. So using that network, they can apear in any part of it. You would have to think of teleportation more as the underground railroad which slaves used to reach the north of amerika to become free.
I hope you can understand what I am trying to do. Are you sharing my Philosophy for the Outlaw Concept? Maybe we should first discuss that, before trying to make them a faction of their own. If there is allready such a thing, which everyone else already agreed on, please tell me. Because as long as we have different goals, of what the outlaws should be like, we will not agree any unit. It is not that I want to force anyone to obey my Vision of the outlaws. It is actually not even me who came up with that, but I had the feeling that this is what was Intended when looking on the thief. The Outlaw seems to fit much the same philosophy. So I thought the Rouque Mage should also fit them. I have to admit that the poacher, and the thug lines seem to be rather ordinary units, which would justify the rouque mage as it is proposed now, but i don't think we need another Faction fighting in a regular way. You have allready the northeners you have the elves, you have the Loyalists, you have the dwarves, even the undead are supposed to go into open battle. I guess thats also true for the drakes. I never played against them yet so. I don't think outlaws can separate them selves enough, and will become just a boring Repetition, of other factions, if we don't steer against their usage as fighting in open battle.
So it is not that much the mage that I don't think is unique enough, it is the faction as a whole which is not unique enough, if the mage is added as proposed and mostly agreed now. If we can present a faction or Race, that has a total different feel, in how you play them I am sure they are much more likly to make it in. I am sure many will be tempted to say we already have enough races, which still nead mor work and units. It must be obvios, that they are just differently enough, to have a justification.
Please tell me what you think about this. I will surely adopt your Vision for the faction as a whole, and am sure, I can focus much more on Ideas, you will like, for the rouque mage, if I understand what the faction is suposed to be like.
I think I understand what you mean, and I think that we disagree at another level than the aim at the faction...
I like the concept of the mainly evasive faction that you are describing, but I'm afraid that if you think of this faction only as an evasive faction it will be so different from other factions that it will be impossible to balance. the faction would be hugely over or under powered depending on the map/ennemy and that's a nightmare to improve because we receive both complaints that the side is over and uner powered and it's very hard to figure out what the problem is and how to balance it (look at the different threads about the undeads being over/under powered...)
that's why I tend to push to simple units with little special powers at first. If you give teleport to your mage, esp at lvl1 it would have to be more or less useless on every other aspects to balance.
yes, it fits the concept of the unit and of the side perfectly, but I think it doesn't fit the wesnoth philosophy of balance. your unit is both good in melee and ranged (which already makes it in the same range of power than say, the elvish fighter) and you want to add a teleport power which is one of the most powerfull one, and is only given to a single lvl3 unit at that point...
no, I like your idea of faction, I just think that you should not give teleport to a lvl1 unit and that (still for the lvl1 unit) being both a good melee and ranged unit is powerfull enough.
new power at lvl up is not that common, most units just get better stats, and you don't want to give one big power per level. he's supposed not to be as good as mage (magically)
I like the concept of the mainly evasive faction that you are describing, but I'm afraid that if you think of this faction only as an evasive faction it will be so different from other factions that it will be impossible to balance. the faction would be hugely over or under powered depending on the map/ennemy and that's a nightmare to improve because we receive both complaints that the side is over and uner powered and it's very hard to figure out what the problem is and how to balance it (look at the different threads about the undeads being over/under powered...)
that's why I tend to push to simple units with little special powers at first. If you give teleport to your mage, esp at lvl1 it would have to be more or less useless on every other aspects to balance.
yes, it fits the concept of the unit and of the side perfectly, but I think it doesn't fit the wesnoth philosophy of balance. your unit is both good in melee and ranged (which already makes it in the same range of power than say, the elvish fighter) and you want to add a teleport power which is one of the most powerfull one, and is only given to a single lvl3 unit at that point...
no, I like your idea of faction, I just think that you should not give teleport to a lvl1 unit and that (still for the lvl1 unit) being both a good melee and ranged unit is powerfull enough.
new power at lvl up is not that common, most units just get better stats, and you don't want to give one big power per level. he's supposed not to be as good as mage (magically)
Boucman wrote:
I don't see a problem for a Level one unit having special abilities. Just consider the orcish assasin. He has poison elusive foot, and ambush in Level one. And he does not seem overpowered, so he is anoying.
Outlaws should also be anoying but not really strong.
Well maybe we can have a different unit then with teleport and being very hard to hit, but other than that, being rather useless. So it could teleport behind enemy lines, if the enemy enters your teritorry. making it possible for your thives to backstab the enemy. because behind the enemy you have this unit. I could emagine to have a different footpad branch having teleporting, but neither improving Melee nor Range Attack.
I would love the outlaws to be kind of weak, if you don't combine their strentgh. Backstaping with teleportation would be an example for that.
I agree that should the outlaws have a good melee fighter it makes sence for the rougemage to be just that. Because it must be for supernatural reasons, that an outlaw can compete in combat, with a trained warrior.
So you convinced me somewhat, with the Idea, of starting out with rather normal units, as a base. Maybe you are right that we need them for multiplayer. But I only play the campaigns, and therefore never expirienced the Undead or any other race to be inbalanced. Maybe I should first play some multiplayer games, before I coment on this. But we should agree to remove the ordinary boring units, whose stats could be that of units of any faction, once we balancesd out the units with special abilities. And there I see the problem. I have never expierenced for any unit to get removed. Not even the woses. (not that I have an opinion abaut that). So my fear is that if we add in regular units at the beginning, to make it easyier to balance, we will never get rid of them anymore, and we won't reach our goal of a faction that realy differentiates it self from the others. But I think if we give the Mage elusiv foot, I can live with him. He just is something totally different of what I wanted to have. I am fearing so that it might become like the trolls of northener faction. I hardly ever recruit anything else, because they are so damn good and easy to use, compared with the others, that are much harder to keep alive. Especially the grunts, are looking really bad against the trolls. I mean the grunts become interesting units, once they are Level three, but it is just so much more convinient to use trolls. So I think noone uses Footpads anymore. Nor will they use poachers.
As a general rule I would they outlaws should have few HP, but they should be hard to hit, Like meremen in water.
Maybe we should make a new thread in the idea section about the Outlaw faction, where we can discuss further units. I think we shouldn't discuss the units each for itself, but should discuss them as a whole army.
I wasn't my idea to give it that much melee attack. I just said it sould be magic. And i never thought of range attack, especially not magic range. But I could live with a sling wich is not a Magic range attack, and also does little damage. So giving him backstap, and teleportation wouldn't be overpowered. But it would force you adopt certain strategies on how to use that unit, so that it is somewhat effectiv.yes, it fits the concept of the unit and of the side perfectly, but I think it doesn't fit the wesnoth philosophy of balance. your unit is both good in melee and ranged (which already makes it in the same range of power than say, the elvish fighter) and you want to add a teleport power which is one of the most powerfull one, and is only given to a single lvl3 unit at that point...
I don't see a problem for a Level one unit having special abilities. Just consider the orcish assasin. He has poison elusive foot, and ambush in Level one. And he does not seem overpowered, so he is anoying.
Outlaws should also be anoying but not really strong.
Well maybe we can have a different unit then with teleport and being very hard to hit, but other than that, being rather useless. So it could teleport behind enemy lines, if the enemy enters your teritorry. making it possible for your thives to backstab the enemy. because behind the enemy you have this unit. I could emagine to have a different footpad branch having teleporting, but neither improving Melee nor Range Attack.
I would love the outlaws to be kind of weak, if you don't combine their strentgh. Backstaping with teleportation would be an example for that.
I agree that should the outlaws have a good melee fighter it makes sence for the rougemage to be just that. Because it must be for supernatural reasons, that an outlaw can compete in combat, with a trained warrior.
So you convinced me somewhat, with the Idea, of starting out with rather normal units, as a base. Maybe you are right that we need them for multiplayer. But I only play the campaigns, and therefore never expirienced the Undead or any other race to be inbalanced. Maybe I should first play some multiplayer games, before I coment on this. But we should agree to remove the ordinary boring units, whose stats could be that of units of any faction, once we balancesd out the units with special abilities. And there I see the problem. I have never expierenced for any unit to get removed. Not even the woses. (not that I have an opinion abaut that). So my fear is that if we add in regular units at the beginning, to make it easyier to balance, we will never get rid of them anymore, and we won't reach our goal of a faction that realy differentiates it self from the others. But I think if we give the Mage elusiv foot, I can live with him. He just is something totally different of what I wanted to have. I am fearing so that it might become like the trolls of northener faction. I hardly ever recruit anything else, because they are so damn good and easy to use, compared with the others, that are much harder to keep alive. Especially the grunts, are looking really bad against the trolls. I mean the grunts become interesting units, once they are Level three, but it is just so much more convinient to use trolls. So I think noone uses Footpads anymore. Nor will they use poachers.
As a general rule I would they outlaws should have few HP, but they should be hard to hit, Like meremen in water.
Maybe we should make a new thread in the idea section about the Outlaw faction, where we can discuss further units. I think we shouldn't discuss the units each for itself, but should discuss them as a whole army.