I think I'm going to make a more complete tutorial

[Invisible Philosopher]

1) Is anyone else already doing this?
2) Is this the right forum to post this in?

[Boucman]

2) yes


1) there has been a couple of atemps (search for new and tutorial on the forum) but non has really produced a real alternative so far IIRC

I think a new tutorial would be very welcomed...

[miyo]

If you want to build a new tutorial... do it for your own fun - if it is good we might consider including it with the game.

What if others have promised to do new tutorials? Well, 10 will promise but only 1 will actually do it - if we are lucky.

- Miyo

[Invisible Philosopher]

I have a problem: next_scenario in an [endlevel] tag in a tutorial seems to be ignored. It always uses the next_scenario in the [tutorial] tag. Everything else about the [endlevel] is working fine.

[Viliam]

A new better tutorial would be very useful. I preferred the old one, but it did not explain enough parts of game. The current one is on too big map, and demands too many quests at once.

From translator's point of view, I would prefer if the new tutorial attempts were added to game (temporarily) as new campaigns, and keep the current tutorial, until it is certainly decided to replace it.

The reason for this is, that when I show game to new players, tutorial is the most important part for them to learn game. But if the tutorial was added just yesterday, the strings are not translated yet.

- - -

My idea about tutorial would be this: separate it to more smaller scenarios. Do not teach too many things in one scenario, this will make it too difficult. It could be probably like this:

Scenario 1: Recruit a scout, walk over map, capture villages.
There are no enemies.
Things learned: recruiting, moving units, turns.

Scenario 2: Player starts with army. On map different enemies appear, player must kill them.
There is no castle and no recruiting. Player's army is clearly superior to enemies.
Things learned: attacking, close vs. ranged attack.

Scenario 3: Player recruits/recalls an army, fights enemy units. One enemy recruits only close-attack units, other enemy only ranged-attack units (same units that appeared in previous scenario).
Things learned: recalling, tactical choice of units.

If you need the story (fitting to Konrad's campaign), then: There are rumors about some dark magic. In first scenario, Konrad collects information from all villages. In second scenario he meets first walking corpses and dark adepts. In third he finds a base of dark cult. There is a camp with dark adepts, and a cemetary with walking corpses.

(Note: It is tutorial -- it is supposed to be easy. Even for those who did never play other strategical game.)

[Elvish_Pillager]

My idea about tutorial would be this: separate it to more smaller scenarios. Do not teach too many things in one scenario, this will make it too difficult.

I HATE these kinds of tutorials. They're very boring. I liked Wesnoth's tutorial because it actually manages to teach you things in any reasonable amount of time.

[Invisible Philosopher]

From translator's point of view, I would prefer if the new tutorial attempts were added to game (temporarily) as new campaigns, and keep the current tutorial, until it is certainly decided to replace it.

The reason for this is, that when I show game to new players, tutorial is the most important part for them to learn game. But if the tutorial was added just yesterday, the strings are not translated yet.

okay, I'll do that.

My idea about tutorial would be this: separate it to more smaller scenarios. Do not teach too many things in one scenario, this will make it too difficult. It could be probably like this:

Scenario 1: Recruit a scout, walk over map, capture villages.
There are no enemies.
Things learned: recruiting, moving units, turns.

Scenario 2: Player starts with army. On map different enemies appear, player must kill them.
There is no castle and no recruiting. Player's army is clearly superior to enemies.
Things learned: attacking, close vs. ranged attack.

Scenario 3: Player recruits/recalls an army, fights enemy units. One enemy recruits only close-attack units, other enemy only ranged-attack units (same units that appeared in previous scenario).
Things learned: recalling, tactical choice of units.

If you need the story (fitting to Konrad's campaign), then: There are rumors about some dark magic. In first scenario, Konrad collects information from all villages. In second scenario he meets first walking corpses and dark adepts. In third he finds a base of dark cult. There is a camp with dark adepts, and a cemetary with walking corpses.

No. I don't need a story, and my tutorial doesn't go like that. As miyo would say, feel free to make your own tutorial. The best will get into the game (hopefully ).

(Note: It is tutorial -- it is supposed to be easy. Even for those who did never play other strategical game.)

Yes, I know.
Why do you think it would be easier in separate scenarios?

[Viliam]

Why do you think it would be easier in separate scenarios?

Less of objectives to remember at once. Smaller map. Quick to finish by small pieces. While not fighting with enemy, camera does not jump over map to show enemy leader.

In current tutorial, when it was possible to recruit units, I recruited one of each possible kind. At the end of turn, this amount of text has flooded me:


"You have recruited Scouts. Elvish Scouts aren't very good in combat although they can sieze large territories in a short time. They are excellent at capturing villages. -- Take over the western villages to get more gold."

"You have recruited Archers. Elvish Archers are weak in hand-to-hand combat, but are excellent shooters. Send your archers against enemies who don't have long range weapons and avoid leaving the forests and villages. Archers advance to Marksman or Rangers, who are deadly with their long bows and swords. -- We have prepared a practice target for you - Gerlog, the thief, due south of your castle."

"You have recruited Fighters. They are well prepared for combat in both close and long range. As all the Elves, they defend themselves well in forests and villages. A Fighter's career ends at Marshal or Champion, both well prepared to fight against all types of enemies. Marshals can also lead soldiers in battle. -- To test Fighters, send them against Kharhbrah, the Poacher on the brigde."


This is too much information for one moment. As I clicked through the messages, at the end I did not remember which unit should go to which part of screen. As tutorial is usually played by people who have no prior experience with the game, this is pretty confusing. Is it necessary to explain that "Archers advance to Marksman or Rangers" that soon (i.e. before player had any experience with Archers)?

For some people I showed this game to, the current tutorial is too much difficult. It writes too much text, which is difficult to remember, if one has no experience with strategy games. If one has to think about "how to select a unit", "how to move it", "when and how to end turn", all the remarks about Fighter advancing to Marshal (who can lead soldiers in battle) or Champion, is totally confusing.

I HATE these kinds of tutorials. They're very boring. I liked Wesnoth's tutorial because it actually manages to teach you things in any reasonable amount of time.

Was Wesnoth the first strategy computer game you have ever played? The "reasonable amount of time" to learn gameplay may be strongly influenced by this - as those games have a lot of in common. Some people need to learn the very concepts of turn-based game, others only need to be told briefly how it differs from e.g. Warlords. If you do not need tutorial, simply skip it. Tutorials are for beginners - not only beginners in the game, but also beginners in the genre.


Anyway, weekend is coming, I will make some small tutorial, and then post it here.

[wobbegong]

I've been (very slowly - too much real life keeps getting in the way) trying to work on some tutorial scenarios.

One thing I think might work well is having a twp part tutorial structure : one set of a few scenarios that introduce the basics (movement, recruit, recall, advancement, range/melee combat), and then a second, also a few scenarios that goes into more detail/offers more depth (day/night, different opponent AI styles, seriously awkward terrains) that would be more for people who have played TBS before but want to know what they really need to look out for in this new (to them) game.

There are certainly wrinkles in game play I really didn't spot (or need to spot due to experience with the general form) for some time... It is also worth noting that most people who play the basic tutorial will then be playing the campaign on easy to begin with as well (so will win some scenarios without having to be clever, just not too bad!). Something else that might also be worth doing is some kind of approximate grading of the campaigns : I would say, for instance, that TRoW is slightly more challenging early on the HttT - in that it rapidly introduces terrain problems and the like that aren't seen for a number of scenarios in HttT, and so would be a harder campaign for a rookie player to prosper in.

--
Some ideas I've already discussed with Darth Fool about tutorial scenarios....

1) First scenario - very little money (maybe only enough to recruit a couple of units - and only a 2 space castle). To keep things simple, and make it very basic.

2) Melee units only. (Again keeps things simple)

3) To make terrain and night important I was considering making the first enemy Bats... only melee, but they can move everywhere so take advantage of anyone being careless - but they don't do much damage, so can be beaten simply by using villages and being patient unless someone messes up really badly...

4) Make the leader character already have some XP, preferably only 1 dead bat from advancement, so someone can hopefully advance quickly - depending on type of unit used this might introduce missile attack, which would be mentioned in a dialogue box and could really turn any fight quite quickly.

--
Looking at them now the problem with bats is that they don't give XP in the normal manner (same problem with walking dead...). This would have to be pointed out in some kind of text-box I feel...

I'm happy to play test anyone's tutorial scenarios, and might actually have a chance to try to do some real work on some myself at some point too.

Cheers,

Tim.

[Invisible Philosopher]

Less of objectives to remember at once.

I wish there was an [objectives] tag, so the objectives could be changed. Then I could say that you can check the current objective from the menu and not have to remember them. (although they are all very simple things)

Oh, and I'm not sure it's a good idea for everyone to be posting their different tutorials in the same thread.

[quartex]

I like the idea of having a string of small scenarios that slowly get more and more complex. At the end you could have a scenario like the old tutorial (back in 0.6.x) where you had to practice fight delfador with a full army. But having a chain of induvidual scenarios helps keep the map simple and the objectives easy to remember.

In many ways the tutorial is one of the most important parts of the game. How many people would stop playing if they didn't understand the tutorial or found it too complex?

[turin]

BTW Dacyn has been working on a new tutorial, with Cedric's help, and it might be in-game soon.

[Dave]

(1) people shouldn't be deterred from doing a tutorial because others are doing one
(2) the motivation for doing a tutorial should be to have fun doing it, and hoping that some others might benefit. We may or may not choose to include it in the game.

What I think would be cool is if someone made a good quality campaign that is generally of an 'easy' level, and teaches players some game fundamentals. It wouldn't have to be a tutorial, but it'd generally be of easier level than the other campaigns, and would probably last 8-12 scenarios.

David

[pjr]

I think 8-12 scenarios is too many for a tutorial. Maybe 4-5 scenarios, of increasing difficulty.

The problem with the current tutorial is that's it's so easy that bad habits in tactics and strategy can easily be formed.

[wobbegong]

I think 8-12 scenarios is too many for a tutorial. Maybe 4-5 scenarios, of increasing difficulty.

I think Dave is thinking of a what would be an 'easy' campaign... One that can be played after the tutorials, but is shorter and doesn't bite so hard if you make mistakes in forces composition (or in failing to advance units) as much as the current campaigns. I would say that HttT is the easiest of the current campaigns - at least in terms of the more gradually introduction of unit types, etc... but it ramps up considerably and you can be really in trouble if you let your army composition get unbalanced or fail to level up at least a few important units (red & white mages for blasting leaders and healing units, and grand knights for there big shock value and ability to absorb a lot of damage are all important to army structure in my book in later scenarios).

Given the number of people now working on some kind of tutorial, I might look at the introductory campaign idea - assuming people know the basics, but trying to lead a balanced force construction and use of different units to solve different tactical problems...

Anyone got an stories of things they took time to learn (but which suddenly improved their play...) please let me know and I'll see if I can make some scenarios to point people in those directions...

One thing that might be worthwhile is having a fairly small map with varied terrain that a succession of simple battles are fought on - that way people can see what difference different troops and tactics make in an environment they are getting used to. [Makes for a simple challenge/gauntlet style plot as well, as different kinds of attack come to a frontier castle/town].

Cheers,

Tim.