Different names for alignment?

[turin]

animals, not sentient beings.

Ummmm.....

beings that have conscious thought.

[sanna]

Nocturnal... is usually used to describe animals, not sentient beings.

Well in REALITY its usually used that way.

Galactic Area 8, No. 62 FOMALHAUT II.
High-Intelligence Life Forms: Species Contacted:
Species I.
A) Gdemiar (singular Gdem): Highly intelligent, fully hominoid nocturnal troglodytes, 120-135 cm. in height....
Species II.
Liuar (singular Liu): Highly intelligent, fully hominoid, diurnal, av. height above 170 cm.,....

While I agree that these terms may be considered somewhat too technical, they're still much better than lawful and chaotic.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Ummmm.....

beings that have conscious thought.

Are you implying that I am not a beng with conscious thought?!?!?!?

Just kidding. But you shouldn't make unnecessary assumpions about the sentience of animals. Some people get offended.

[jmosher]

Orcs are nocturnal in Wesnoth. They like the dark and fight poorly in the day. That's basically what "nocturnal" means.

Nocturnal means "Sleeps during the day, active at night", actually, and it is usually used to describe animals, not sentient beings.

Nocturnal is used quite commonly to describe doings at night. It certainly is used to describe natural habits, but those apply as much to humans as to animals, except that we are more likely to override our natural inclinations.

That said, a creature sleeps in the day and is active at night precisely because it functions better in the night and worse in the day. If modeled in Wesnothian terms, it would fight poorly in the light but well in the day. If you asked its opinion, it would rather wait to fight until the sun goes down.

If the first word that comes to your mind to capture those preferences is "chaotic," well, you've been playing Wesnoth too much. I am not committed to nocturnal and diurnal, but I do think the current terms are confusing.

They are also limiting. For example, Dwarfs should probably fight better in the dark, since they spend most of their time underground. But our system that would make them "chaotic," with all the baggage that entails. Our what if I wanted to make some wild fire monster that got its power from the sun - should it be called "lawful"? We are descending into jargon here.

[turin]

something of the kind you described wouldn't really fit into wesnoth.

And FYI, the reason dwarves are not chaotic is the whole point of them is to have a cave-going unit that is not like the trolls, who are chaotic. (IIRC)

[jmosher]

something of the kind you described wouldn't really fit into wesnoth.

Why? Is there some Wesnothian principle against elemental monsters? It seems like something an Orcish Shaman would love to summon, e.g. Or are you just proving my point that we can't create such a monster because we've decided only lawful creatures love the sun?

I could also imagine Saurians logically being sun-loving, reptilian as they are.

And FYI, the reason dwarves are not chaotic is the whole point of them is to have a cave-going unit that is not like the trolls, who are chaotic. (IIRC)

• Their relative preference for darkness is hardly the key distinguishing feature between the two: huge/short; regenerates/does not regenerate; swings clubs/uses various weapons; stupid/clever; ally of orcs/enemy of orcs.
  
  And the point is not whether Dwarfs or Saurians in particular should prefer the light or dark. The real issue is that we've needlessly constrained our thinking because of the extra baggage "Lawful" and "Chaotic" contain.

[Dave]

I think that jmosher has some very legitimate points, but let's remember the importance of perspective.

We're looking at this very much from a 21st century scientific perspective. To us, 'day' is the portion of time where the sun is shining on our part of the earth, and thus there is much more light by which to see. 'night' is the portion of time where the sun is on the opposite side of the earth, and its light reaches the earth indirectly.

Creatures that rely heavily on light are advantaged at day, and creatures that rely less on light, or even hate light, are advantaged at night. It's all very logical.

However creating interesting fantasy worlds isn't just about applying modern scientific reason. In fact, it's often the opposite: about suspending our scientific knowledge, and viewing things the way the ancients viewed them, when they developed the basis of most fantasy.

To the ancients, there was much more to day and night than a difference in the amount of light. Day was generally associated with good, and night with evil. Certain creatures - goblins, spirits, etc were associated with the night in a way that suggests a relationship based on more than just the amount of light available.

Much of creating a fantasy world involves taking select beliefs of the ancients, and making them reality as far as our world is concerned.

My suggestion is that in Wesnoth, day and night aren't simply times where the amount of light differs. They also have an 'aura' about them. They are forces of their own. Creatures which follow the ways of law and establish order feel invigorated and strong during the day. Creatures which are chaotic in their ways serve much better in the darkness of night. Some creatures, such as the Elves, have mastered the power of both, and are unaffected by day and night.

David

[turin]

Some creatures, such as the Elves, have mastered the power of both, and are unaffected by day and night.

I think a better reasoning is they were never influenced by either...

i, for one, don't think elves should be evil.

[Dave]

Some creatures, such as the Elves, have mastered the power of both, and are unaffected by day and night.

I think a better reasoning is they were never influenced by either...

i, for one, don't think elves should be evil.

I don't think elves should be evil either. The alignments are lawful/neutral/chaotic, not good/neutral/evil, after all.

While 'most' chaotic creatures (e.g. the orcs) harness the powers of the night for evil, it is also possible to harness them for good. The Elves are unaffected either way; able to harness the powers of both. Some chaotic units have mastered the powers of the night and use them for good. Many lawful units use the powers of the day to spread evil...

David

[Dacyn]

Some creatures, such as the Elves, have mastered the power of both, and are unaffected by day and night.

wouldn't mastering the power of both mean that they would get a bonus both ways?

[Dave]

Some creatures, such as the Elves, have mastered the power of both, and are unaffected by day and night.

wouldn't mastering the power of both mean that they would get a bonus both ways?

Sure. Elves get a bonus in all types of settings. But rather than say "+25%" in all, it's more convenient and readable to give them "+0%" and have the bonus already reflected in their stats.

David

[turin]

wouldn't mastering the power of both mean that they would get a bonus both ways?

Sure. Elves get a bonus in all types of settings. But rather than say "+25%" in all, it's more convenient and readable to give them "+0%" and have the bonus already reflected in their stats.

David

but it does make a difference. Having it "+25% all" would make it so other bonuses (and penalties) wouldn't be as extreme, since it is an additive system.

[Dave]

Sure. Elves get a bonus in all types of settings. But rather than say "+25%" in all, it's more convenient and readable to give them "+0%" and have the bonus already reflected in their stats.

David

but it does make a difference. Having it "+25% all" would make it so other bonuses (and penalties) wouldn't be as extreme, since it is an additive system.

Sure it makes a difference. And in all the respects it makes a difference, it is better to have the current system.

David

[Eponymous-Archon]

I agree that Chaotic and Lawful are poor terms to describe the day/night changes units undergo.

Nocturnal/Diurnal seems decent to me with nothing for units that don't see any difference.

[MadMax]

I think Lawful and Chaotic are the best. It makes sense, and is easy to understand.