New elven unit

[JW]

I was responding to irrevenants post.

A faction does not need a "quick fast" everything you know. Yes, it would addd diversity, but perhaps at the cost of watering down the uniqueness of the other units?

Also, 5 moves is hardly "quick fast." I would say the sharpshooter is the ranged, avenger is the mixed. The two melee classes are standard speed.

[turin]

Also I never stated "I just don't like the other units" as a reason for mine to be included, if you look closely I said that because ppl seemed to think I was totally bashing on all of those units qualities and several times this thread almost got off topic with it. I said that so they would know that is not the case and to return the discussion to the original matter.

Uh, in your original post you said that "I dislike the fighters and their upgrades". If that wasn't intended as a reason for why your new unit idea should be considered, why was it in your first post?

Anyway, I hope you won't be offended if I say I find your reasoning... unconvincing.

[irrevenant]

It's also less hampered by terrain than other rider units (except the gryphon) which gives it even greater range than the number indicates.

Sorry to have to do this....

Err, you realise I was agreeing with you, right?

[Edward V Riley]

I appreciate someone coming up with new ideas. I do like the idea for your Elven Stalker but...

The elves are, to me, the most perfectly balanced group in Wesnoth. Yeah, the scout is vulnerable...but only if he's hit. Anything that can retreat through the trees like them doesn't need Impact Resistance.

Perhaps Elves should be divided up into Wood, dark(they have been made before), High, and perhaps sea elves. Then the Stalkers could be added to High elves(as I think the current regular elves are wood), along with similar but slightly changed units.

[AI]

the elves we currently have *are* the wood elves from the south-eastern forests.

The green stuff on his head doesn't look like a cowl/hood to me. His ears stick through it, it sits on his head exactly like hair and he has a TC cloth tied around it.

Anyway, I'm willing to use this in a campaign, but I'm not too sure what to do with it...

[exodia91]

turin if your going to quote me put in the full quote instead of just what suits you

I mainly play as the elves most of the time and I've felt a lack of a proper melee unit.... I dislike the fighters and their upgrades since they just seem to get creamed by almost everything as does the cavalry, they're only effective enmasse.

I stated the initial reason for my unit cause I disliked the fighter and scouts cause of thier weak-medium melee potential.... not because I just disliked them. and I'm not offended that you find my idea unconvincing. I am offended that you say that my idea is.... unconvincing.... without giving any constructive feedback or reasons.

[CIB]

Perhaps Elves should be divided up into Wood, dark(they have been made before), High, and perhaps sea elves.

Not to forget the Sky and the Swamp Elves.

[JW]

Sorry to have to do this....

Err, you realise I was agreeing with you, right?

lol, totally no.

[JW]

turin if your going to quote me put in the full quote instead of just what suits you

I mainly play as the elves most of the time and I've felt a lack of a proper melee unit.... I dislike the fighters and their upgrades since they just seem to get creamed by almost everything as does the cavalry, they're only effective enmasse.

I stated the initial reason for my unit cause I disliked the fighter and scouts cause of thier weak-medium melee potential.... not because I just disliked them. and I'm not offended that you find my idea unconvincing. I am offended that you say that my idea is.... unconvincing.... without giving any constructive feedback or reasons.

I'm sorry....did I read this right? weak-medium melee potential? What kind of a unit do you want? A Wose? There's already a Wose. There is no need for more Woses. 20 melee with 40% chance for 24 melee at all times of day is pretty damn good for 14g.

Grunts: 18 base, min-max of 14-24
Dwarf Fighters: 21 base, min-max of 21-24
Drake Fighters: 21 base, min-max of 15-30
Spearman: see drake
Skeletons: 21 base, 15-27
Elf fighter: 20 base, min-max of 20-24

I'll even do some more analysis for you:
Grunt = 19 expected damage (50% strong, 50% not) @12g = 1.58
Dwarf = 22.2 (40% strong) @ 17g = 1.31
Clasher = 24 @ 19g = 1.37
Spear = 22.5 @ 14g = 1.61
Skele = 21 @ 15g = 1.4
Elf = 21.6 @ 14g = 1.54

So here you go:
EFFICIENCY
1.61 Spearman
1.58 Grunt
1.54 Elf
1.40 Skele
1.37 Drake
1.31 Dwarf

Also note that the elf has a ranged attack that can reach 12 damage as well. So hey, they might not deal as much damage as a Clasher, but they are one of the most cost-effective ways to put damage on your opponent. What do you think of Grunts and Dwarves who can only hit for 24 max at level 1 just like the elf?

-edit-
I should have used the Drake Fighter in my analysis, which is weaker and less efficient than the Clasher. The Clasher is more equivalent to a Wose or HI unit.

[turin]

I stated the initial reason for my unit cause I disliked the fighter and scouts cause of thier weak-medium melee potential.... not because I just disliked them. and I'm not offended that you find my idea unconvincing. I am offended that you say that my idea is.... unconvincing.... without giving any constructive feedback or reasons.

You're running in circles and contradicting yourself again. Do you think the Rebels are underpowered or not?

If so, we'll prove to you they're not. If not, then what the heck does your "not liking" the units have to do with anything, and why did you bring it up in the first place? It doesn't matter that you don't like them because they don't do enough melee damage or whatever - unless you're going to argue that the faction is underpowered because of that lack of melee damage, it's irrelevant. If you don't want to argue that the Rebels are underpowered (and I would advise against it, you'll lose that argument), you need a better argument than that you don't like the elvish melee units - because you not liking them does not show there's a problem with them.

[exodia91]

You're running in circles and contradicting yourself again.

again? when did I ever run around in circles.... except where you mis-intrepreted what I said and I was forced to clarify and re-state. and if I thought the elves were underpowered I would have said that. I believe I said I always play as the elves. They're my favorite faction. However I find I only ever use scouts, fighters, and wose VERY rarely, and in small numbers. and JW you forgot to take into account their HP, that factors into a units melee potential, and their efficency. and as for me not liking them.... you yourself are the one continually bringing it up. I said I don't like them for their low melee potential.... you seem to have taken that as me just hating them for no good reason.... and went so far as to misquote me to make it look like that.... I also stated I disliked them when ppl started saying I was calling them worthless, and I stated that it was just my opinion... and that should have been the end of it, but you are the one who has brought it up twice now ... please do not make me have to re-state this for you a third time.... its getting tiring. Now as for reasons for my unit to be included, with this unit I hope to give players more choice as to how their army can develope, I believe it will add postivly to the faction. Now why don't you state the reasons why it shouldn't be? besides the "It's just not needed" that you could say about any idea. Would it be to powerful? dosen't look like that to me. would it unbalance anything? ... again it looks to be a no..... but maybe I'm just blind, so point them out to me, would you?

[turin]

Just so we're clear - the only reason this unit would be added is to "be interesting", yes? (So why the heck did you bring up the power level of the Fighter? This still makes no sense to me.)


Well then, my answer is - by giving the faction more options unit-wise, you actually make it less interesting. If every faction could recruit every unit, the game would be boring as hell. It's only interesting because the factions are different from each other. Giving the Rebels another unit like this would on the surface make them more interesting, because "yay, another unit to play with", but it would actually just complicate them while making them more boring and more like every other faction out there.

[exodia91]

so...... my 1 unit effectively makes the entire elf faction..... boring? sorry if I fail to see how that is possible.... and my unit somehow makes the elves able to recruit every other unit? huh I dun remember giving him that.... and if you wanna go down the "only whats neccesary" path.... pretty much everything in wesnoth is unneccesary, you only need 2 factions, 1 era, 1 campagin for each faction, no server for MP, and 3 or 4 maps for MP.... about...... 90% of all of wesnoths content is "unneccesary".... so according to you.... we should delete all that extra stuff called fun and have a boring bland game. Also I brought up the melee power of the other units to show that this unit would have some use and serve a purpose.

[Velensk]

The point from my perspective is that, as there is not a compelling reason to add the unit no one will. However this is not the case in a certain campain at the very least so it's not completly pointless.

I agree with turin that it's a good idea to maintain factional diveristy. One of the features of the elves is that they arn't quite as good at melle as the others, this is a trade off for their other skills. The prosect of a unit to cover this gap, does not make the gap disapear, but it does make it less noticeable, and we wish to maintain that gap to the best of our abilties.

The artwork is very nice though.

[anakayub]

What Turin's saying is that each faction has inherent weaknesses/strengths/identity. Giving more options, each faction loses it's flavor, and thus more boring.