Faster higher level healing

[TruePurple]

Discussing the issue of allied healing I remembered a issue that comes up with higher level units.

That they can be as much a liablity as a bonus. It depends on the higher level unit of course, some units get more on leveling then others. It often seems to become more about the well timed free healing then the extra HP. Since once one of these say, level 3 warrior behemoths gets deeply injured, without exploiting something like allied healing it can take really long for it to get to full health again.

Meanwhile its costing you 3 gold a turn and injured enemy units can take pot shots at it for their own free full healing/leveling. (yes you try to block them off, but its not always a option)

We could let healing stack, well listening to the arguements against fixing allied healing you wouldn't figure it would be a problem. But I have another idea as well.

Any healing thats +8, or any healing that also has cure (AI: the +8 healing, villages, regeneration) Gives +2 more health for every level the healing unit (not the healer) has beyond 1.

Any healing thats less then 8, or not accompanied by cure (IE those +4 healers) would give +1 more health for every level the healing unit has beyond 1.

The not moving healing bonus could similarly be boosted with a +1 for every level beyond 1.

Since it effects all faction units it should be pretty balance neutral.

[megane]

It does take a long time for high HP units to get healed. But if they didn't have high HP, they wouldn't be heavily damaged, they'd be dead. Higher level units don't heal slower, they just can survive a much higher amount of damage.

Put another way, if your Orcish Warlord and your Orcish Grunt both take 30 damage, it'll take the same amount of time to heal them. The difference is that, at 30 damage, the Grunt's next to dead, but the Warlord can keep on fighting for quite a while before it goes into the red. Yes, it'll take you 6 turns in a village to heal him, but you have to remember that you let him take 50 points of damage in combat first, and beyond that, he survived it. If you allowed the Grunt to get into that kind of trouble, he'd be long gone, and would've been much less damaging in any case.

Also, it does not affect all factions equally. Only Loyalists, Rebels, and Drakes have healers at all. So what you're saying is it'd be fine for a MoL on a village, surrounded by lv3's, to generate 84 points of healing per turn, instead of the current 56?

Further, those 8 points a turn a worth significantly more when applied to a lv3, as it's much more difficult to damage him that amount (due to the facts that higher level units often have better resistances, and will almost always give back much more damage in retal).

Finally, I do not know if you took this into account, but the default AMLA now fully heals, allowing you to heal those 50 points of damage in one go just for killing stuff, which lv3's are generally good at.

[TruePurple]

Other races have regenerating units, and all maps have villages. There is also that extra healing for not moving effects all units.

AML doing full heal does help, but it can be very difficult to get that compared to upgrading lower level units.

That 6 turns in village would cost you 18 gold btw. But since you can't afford to have those level 3's die and level up a enemy anyways, most would retreat it before red line to heal unless they didn't have a choice.

No level 3's typically have the same resistance and dodge. There are only a handful of exceptions. Mostly just the loyalist spearman level 2 upgrades. Most upgrades aren't that much harder to kill, they just do more damage.

[Kens_Mom]

Any healing thats less then 8, or not accompanied by cure (IE those +4 healers) would give +1 more health for every level the healing unit has beyond 1.

Would this include resting? If so, how would this affect "healthy" dwarves?

Since it effects all faction units it should be pretty balance neutral.

Keep in mind that the undead and Knalgans have neither a healer or a regenerater.

Edit:

No level 3's typically have the same resistance and dodge. There are only a handful of exceptions. Mostly just the loyalist spearman level 2 upgrades. Most upgrades aren't that much harder to kill, they just do more damage.

I'm basically repeating what Mr.Megane said, but the fact that level 3s do more damage is the reason that they're harder to kill. The hard hitting retaliation works like a deterrent against potential attackers.

[TruePurple]

@Kens_Mom
I added this on apparently after you read the thread.
The not moving healing bonus could similarly be boosted with a +1 for every level beyond 1.

As far as the healthy effect, it should stack with the bonus healing from level yes.

Yes those don't have healers/regenerators. So I suppose it wouldn't be completely balance neutral. But every map has villages, and they could enjoy the rest bonus healing just the same.

I suppose to make it truely balance neutral we could say just resting, and village healing are effected.

[TruePurple]

the fact that level 3s do more damage is the reason that they're harder to kill. The hard hitting retaliation works like a deterrent against potential attackers.

Not if your enemy is ranging on your melee unit without range or visa versa.

[JW]

So what you're saying is it'd be fine for a MoL on a village, surrounded by lv3's, to generate 84 points of healing per turn, instead of the current 56?

Read my idea better. The level of the healer doesn't matter, its the level of the unit being healed that makes the difference.

Emphasis mine.

[TruePurple]

Oops, the error was mine. I apologize.

But really, how often are you going to have 6 reasonably injured level 3's standing around a reasonably injured level 3 heal 8 healer or anything close to that?

[TL]

Discussing the issue of allied healing I remembered a issue that comes up with higher level units.

That they can be as much a liablity as a bonus.

This is absolutely true and would still be true regardless of whether they got more HP per turn than lower level units. It is a deliberate and long-standing design decisions that level 3 units can be as much a liability as a bonus, since they cost more in upkeep and give out more XP to enemies. The speed at which they heal (which is equal to the speed at which everyone else heals, as has been pointed out) doesn't enter into it. Your suggestion boils down to giving high level units accelerated healing to counterbalance their drawbacks which exist in the first place to counterbalance their power, but effectively only giving this advantage to certain factions but not others.

The sheer power of high level units comes at a cost. If you have an issue with the drawbacks they suffer from, then make your case for why they should not have those drawbacks rather than going off on largely unrelated tangent.

[TruePurple]

Its not really any more lop sided in its effect of faction balance then allied healing stacking, except it effects non allied games. It actually has less effect on balance because +2 per level isn't a huge amount. Where +8 or +16 from a allie or two is.

I feel some level 3's the drawbacks can sometimes be more then the good they do, it can depend. I think that should never be. Upgrades should mostly be a good thing. A weak bonus to being healed should adjust this somewhat.

I feel the free healing from upgrading overshadows the actual upgrade itself too much with many units (but not all) An example of this is orc assassin upgrade which is not much better from my perspective in any sense.

As I mentioned before. If it only effected rest healing bonus and village healing, then it would be truely faction neutral. Don't you agree TL? See any issue with that?

[The Hidden Hippogriff]

It is hard enough to kill leveled up units. If the enemy teams had this it would be very annoying just watching him heal and kill your attempts to weaken him also, part of the lure of leveled up units is you have to take care of them even though they are powerful.
I don't think it is a very good good idea.

[Dave]

If we want to make higher level units heal faster we do it by increasing their resistances rather than increasing their hitpoints.

However, the slower healing is an intentional design decision, and that is why we increase hitpoints much more often.

David

[Ryorin]

So, if you had a lvl3 healer surrounded by lvl 3's you would heal them faster?

The problem comes in when you factor in that a group of that power level would be this side of impossible to bring down easily without the extra healing. Imagine if the units were healing faster than you could damage them.

[JW]

orc assassin upgrade which is not much better from my perspective in any sense.

As I mentioned before. If it only effected rest healing bonus and village healing, then it would be truely faction neutral. Don't you agree TL? See any issue with that?

So more than 2x melee damage at level isn't that good? Also, 2x damage on ranged poison isn't good? That jump is one of the best in the game, along with the wraith, whelp, and rogue. The battle incompetent unit can now viably join the battle.

As for only effecting rest/village healing, I actually think it would be a positive change. It's not that big of a deal IMO, but the psychological effets it would bring would be worth it (again, IMO; but then again I'm not the one coding).

[Noy]

Okay

#1 its already possible to change curing/healing. It can be +4+8+200. This satisfies any UME UMC concerns

#2 when this was implemented we didn't change them for balance reasons.


We like the system as is its not going to change.

Locked.