New elven unit

[exodia91]

this is my first post here, although I've played the game for a while. I mainly play as the elves most of the time and I've felt a lack of a proper melee unit.... I dislike the fighters and their upgrades since they just seem to get creamed by almost everything as does the cavalry, they're only effective enmasse. So I was wondering if a new lv 2 branch could be added to the fighter. The Elvish stalker. have him sacrifice his bow for improved melee skills, give him good mobility but not so much HP and maybe the ambush skill.

EDIT: made a prototype graphic

[vetgirig]

We already have 2 level 2 fighter units - elf captain and elf hero. The elf hero does 8-4 in melee damage.

As for ambush capability so does the elf ranger have 7-3 in melee damage.

Making a new fighter with ambush and no ranged at level 2 could not be given more damage than the hero so it will have 8-4 damage I think.

If you want ambush rangers melee damage aint to bad and if you want pure raw power go with heros.

But the final nail in the coffin is that that if you want a fighter type in elf faction with ambush and no ranged attacks and strong melee attack - use woses.

[db0]

The question I think you need to ask yourself is "Do I want to play elves or Orcs"? I mean, an army needs to have a flavor in order to be different. Elves are not supposed to outmelee, melee-heavy factions

[CIB]

The Elvish Champion might not be the best melee unit ever, but you surely don't need hordes of them. Best tank unit I know, in fact(atleast when there's forest).

Anyway, an Elvish melee unit with ambush might be fun, I'd like to play with something like that once(but adding it to Standard wouldn't make much sense, would only require rebalancing the whole thing)

[Jetrel]

I dislike the fighters and their upgrades since they just seem to get creamed by almost everything as does the cavalry, they're only effective enmasse.

I agree that the elven scouts are too fragile compared to other cavalry - I think we should at least give them the same boost to impact resistance that most cavalry get to offset their pierce weakness. But the elven fighters are monsters - they're extremely strong. I would venture the notion that they're a better basic melee unit than most other factions have available; short of the dwarven fighter, nothing else gets this kind of copious terrain defense, and the elf has the following great upsides:

- It's neutral, so it can never get pounded at bad times of day.
- It has a decent ranged attack; in fact if it's dextrous, its ranged attack is almost as good as the orcish archer.
- It has four strikes, so you can often count on it to actually hit. Also, strong has twice the effect on an elven fighter that it does on an orcish grunt.

The Elvish Champion might not be the best melee unit ever, but you surely don't need hordes of them. Best tank unit I know, in fact(atleast when there's forest).

Yep.

Anyway, an Elvish melee unit with ambush might be fun, I'd like to play with something like that once(but adding it to Standard wouldn't make much sense, would only require rebalancing the whole thing)

Aka rangers, or especially, avengers.

[gotrek860]

I can see why elvish cavalry needs a bit of strengthening, but honestly, the elvish infantry is great value for money and does not need to be changed in anyway. Otherwise it just would be a different race.

[CIB]

Am I the only one who rarely uses Elvish Avenger's melee on offense?

[exodia91]

the problem with wose is that sure you an ambush an enemy party with them but once you have they're done, they're so slow the enemy can just surround them and smoke them. I want a melee that can do hit and run tactics, thats what it seems the elves would be doing in forests, and while avengers and rangers can do this, against like a great mage their ranged attacks are bad and while their melee is decent its not gonna allow you to take out even a small party in a turn or two. however with a stalker or two you can smoke them and fade back into the forest.

[[PA] NotUncleDave]

well, elvish avengers are built like mixed fighters- they're not as strictly archers as their lv1, just an interesting offshoot if you need versatility, defense, and enjoy ambush.

so i just use whatever type of attack is most beneficial at the time- against a wose, for example, you'd be a lot better off using melee.

and for what it's worth, i don't think elvish scouts need improving too much (buffing their impact resistance would screw over drake gliders, for one thing... better to give them a slight hp increase) and the fact that they have a strong (for a scout) ranged attack... they're mixed fighters on horseback already, 60% defense in forest and can traverse mountains. they're really good already, is what i'm trying to say. after the initial grab, they fare better than most other scout units due to the fact that they can get both strong and dextrous, have decent melee and ranged to make use of both- and when they're in forest, they're pretty much the hardest scout to kill. constant retaliation, 60% defense...

[CarpeGuitarrem]

The question I think you need to ask yourself is "Do I want to play elves or Orcs"? I mean, an army needs to have a flavor in order to be different. Elves are not supposed to outmelee, melee-heavy factions

I think this sums it up right here. Elves are supposed to have a balance between melee and archery, that's who they are. That's also why they have Shamans, to slow enemies.

[exodia91]

I'm not critisizing the scout for its scouting capabilities, I'm just saying it isn't adept as an hit and run or as a straight up melee fighter, the same for their higher levels, I've seen two average level 1 fighters take down an elven rider in forests... and similar things happen quite often. but anyway this isn't a discussion about the merits of the elvish scout its about wether or not elves need a, possibly ambushing, melee unit

[JW]

Guys, the Elvish Scout has 9 moves. Think about that.

The EF is great for 14g. He's better than a spearman in some cases.

The new unit might be interesting, but then again it might just water down the unit tree. Now instead of {DAMAGE} v {LEADERSHIP} you have to choose between {MIXED DAMAGE} v {MELEE DAMAGE} v {LEADERSHIP}. I don't know if that adds to the flavor or not.

[JW]

To specifically address the OP:

I mainly play as the elves most of the time and I've felt a lack of a proper melee unit.... I dislike the fighters and their upgrades since they just seem to get creamed by almost everything as does the cavalry, they're only effective enmasse. So I was wondering if a new lv 2 branch could be added to the fighter. The Elvish stalker.

Is the underlined really a problem if true? What do you think of Northerners as a faction?

Also, your proposal also does nothing to solve the issue you raise: you're making a L2 unit for a problem you have with the L1.

[thespaceinvader]

I honestly don't think this fits with the elves' flavour - they, to my mind, are adaptable and flexible. A melee only unit is not (as) flexible as one with a ranged attack. I'm not a fan, tbh.

[TL]

I agree that the elven scouts are too fragile compared to other cavalry - I think we should at least give them the same boost to impact resistance that most cavalry get to offset their pierce weakness.

Elf scouts can get 60% defense vs. 40% defense for cavalry/horsemen. That means they're getting hit 25% less often, effectively negating their pierce weakness and giving them damage negation against blade/impact that's roughly comparable to other horse units. Granted that's only in forest, mountain, and castle, but they can still get 50% in hills which helps even things out somewhat. Moreover, they have 9 movement (more than any other level 1 unit) and don't suffer the horribly slow movement that most horse units have in anything but plains/hills, and excellent mixed attacks (including a ranged pierce attack that several other scout units are notably vulnerable to).